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Anatomy and the Martial Arts

 
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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Anatomy and the Martial Arts Reply with quote
Do any of your sensei spend time on anatomy as effective means of disarming, or disabling opponents? For example, as many people know a strike to the side of the neck can cause a person to pass out. The reason is the baroreceptors in the carotid artery are triggered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroreceptor

Here is a drawing that shows approximately where the baroreceptor is located at the branch of the carotid artery. http://www.mayoclinic.org/carotid-artery-disease/images/image-lg.jpg

The problem with teaching these techniques is that they can be lethal.

When falling, the natural tendency is to reach out and fall against your outstretched hand. If you do so, you can fracture the radial head as it's located next to the elbow. Note this drawing:
This is why your sensei teaches you proper falling techniques (ukemi)in your first class. So, when you throw your opponent in real life, you can set them up for a fracture by tossing them such that their hand is outstretched. Hence the very real danger with improper techniques when throwing.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Anatomy and the Martial Arts Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:
Do any of your sensei spend time on anatomy as effective means of disarming, or disabling opponents? For example, as many people know a strike to the side of the neck can cause a person to pass out. The reason is the baroreceptors in the carotid artery are triggered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroreceptor

Here is a drawing that shows approximately where the baroreceptor is located at the branch of the carotid artery. http://www.mayoclinic.org/carotid-artery-disease/images/image-lg.jpg

The problem with teaching these techniques is that they can be lethal.

When falling, the natural tendency is to reach out and fall against your outstretched hand. If you do so, you can fracture the radial head as it's located next to the elbow. Note this drawing:
This is why your sensei teaches you proper falling techniques (ukemi)in your first class. So, when you throw your opponent in real life, you can set them up for a fracture by tossing them such that their hand is outstretched. Hence the very real danger with improper techniques when throwing.


Actually yeah. My sensei has a degree in sports science and so he always incorporates it in lessons. We also have 3-4 doctors who study in my dojo so w ehave that rescource.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

My juujutsu no sensei has an undergraduate degree in sports science as well and uses medical information as often as possible.
I do not have a degree but I have read a fair share of anatomy books and I incorporate that information into both styles that I teach. For arts like juujutsu and knife fighting anatomical knowledge is a necessity.


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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Excellent Reply with quote
I would have guessed it to be rare to have someone trained in anatomy as a Sensei. I know that it is common in Japan and China. It's clear from looking at Funakoshi's main text that he stressed the importance of anatomy.

I was watching the movie, The Hunted, the other day. While I was watching it, I was impressed at the methodology for using blade combinations. I would be very interested to know who was the martial arts adviser for the film. Perhaps it's a trained special forces person.

It's supposed to be based upon Tom Brown. While Mr. Brown is a tracker of some renown, I doubt that he knows these kind of knife fighting combinations. I attended a survival class in his training camp in New Jersey (twenty years ago), and while it's possible that he does know martial arts, I saw no evidence of that when I was there. I was impressed by his tracking and teaching. Here's a picture and link to his school. He looks the same, just more gray in his hair.
http://www.trackerschool.com/course_template_new.asp?tid=2
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

As far as I know the knife fighting consultant was a Filipino knife fighting instructor. Lack of anatomical knowledge when using a bladed weapon means that you will waste time and energy hacking and slashing at areas that will not effect the opponent. A skilled fighter with a penknife can beat a fool with a machete.


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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Especially if they can locate the renal artery Reply with quote
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,


So many more places to poke, prod, and sever.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At almost every school I've trained at, at least 3 to 5 of the main longtime students are in the medical profession. Many of my teachers have had degrees in medical science. I always found that interesting. I guess at some point you get sick of helping people and want to go do some koppojutsu or chin-na and hurt some people for a while or something. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

A case of spending all day fixing things when all you want to do to let off steam is just break something. A little medical knowledge can go a very long way.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

A case of spending all day fixing things when all you want to do to let off steam is just break something. A little medical knowledge can go a very long way.


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Yep. Wink
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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: True Reply with quote
But the renal artery is under enormous pressure, hence it's a fast killing blow. It requires a short stab and a twist. This and you're behind your opponent as you strike and hence it's harder for them to counter. Note the size of the main artery next to the renal, it's the descending aorta, and it asctually quite enormous in human. I saw one in a cadaver and it was huge.

Much of that depicted in the arm and shoulder is hard to strike. A cut to the brachial artery about the level where it bifricates would certainly cause them to bleed to death. I believe a slash at this level is common as a slicing move in kenjutsu to sever the tendons to cause the swordsman to drop the blade as well.

While the carotid is under quite a bit of pressure, it's no where close to the renal pressure. The point depicted in your drawing has quite a bit of muscle and bone in the area. Higher up on the neck would be more effective.

The axillary is quite an effective disabling cut since the brachial plexus (while higher) does follow along the axillary artery. Hence the arm would spasm into a tristing motion or simply be useless as the swordsman bled to death.

Hey! Go over and vote for Ran or Seven Samurai as the best samurai film over here: http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1253&start=75
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

Cutting the carotid artery has a bleed-out time of about three to five seconds, which is the fastest bleed-out of any artery. The brachial is 5 to 7 while those below the midsection (femoral and renal) are upwards of fifteen seconds. Pressure or no, the carotid and brachial arteries win. Plus a good sharp knife does not require that much force to cut through flesh and muscle. It is easier to cut than to stab.


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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Kind of twisted huh? Reply with quote
That sounded like experience talking Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

Multiple types of experience. My own, those of my teachers, those of my peers, and those of the law enforcement professionals who have kindly shared their stories and pictures with me.
A set of short videos was shown to me containing shank attacks in prisons. The most successful of those involved cuts as opposed to stabs. In order for a stab to hit a target as rapidly vital as the renal artery the attacker has to be as lucky as he is skilled. An opponent who is actively trying not to become the next resident of the morgue does not make things any easier. Cuts to areas where arteries and high capacity veins are closer to the surface allow the attacker to use full length of the blade plus the distace of the cut to open a larger area of skin and increase the chance of arterial/veinal serverance.


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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Okay you win Reply with quote
I have to go write my Legal Consideration in Medical Ethics paper for my Masters class, so I'll concede victory to you. Imagine doing your Masters while doing an MD simultaneously. Ah the joys of a grad school education.

It is fun conversation, hope to pick it up in a couple of days. Just Kidding

I was just teasing since you knew the bleedout rate to the second. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

I know similar pain to that. I am struggling through my Masters program in Public History while working full time for the local Sheriff's Office.


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