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Who is the best swordman in the Shinsengumi?
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Who is the best swordman in the Shinsengumi?
Kondo Isami
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Hijikata Toshizo
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Okita Soji
66%
 66%  [ 8 ]
Nagakura Shinpachi
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Saito Hajime
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Hattori Takeo
0%
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Other
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 12

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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dennis,

But what is your definition of fight? Will there be a designated combat area or are opponents free to move around anywhere? Can other weapons be used? How would you define "weapon?"


平和,

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dennis wrote:
ok, obviously the only to settle this is with a sword fight. Would you prefer a general melee or individual matches?
Yes!!! A SWORD FIGHT!!!!!!! Just Kidding Just Kidding

Hmmm, I kinda like the "general melee" concept. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Wave Tossed,

Alright, let me see if I can boil this down even more.
Combat effectiveness is a matter of who can do the most with the least effort. If your goal as a fighter is to incapacitate your opponent then if you can achieve a one punch knockout then you are more effective than one who needs two strikes to make it happen. Style points be damned.
If you have a propensity to kill then your ability to kill quickly makes you more effective than one who needs more time and effort to accomplish the same goal.
When it comes down to things like this where the people in question are, without a doubt, killers then there is no "betterment of self." Swords, like all weapons, exist for the purpose of killing.
Does that help?


平和,

マット
Thanks!

However, with all my ramblings and absurd questionings, I actually was trying to make the point that when it comes to people in history, asking who is the "best swordfighter" among a group of Shinsengumi members is rather meaningless when it comes to studying actual people and events in history. Though maybe it's fun to specualate, especially for Shinsengumi fans (and there are a passel of them) who like to think about swordfights. Have fun! Just Kidding
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wicked iemon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Swordsman Reply with quote
I think the whole object of this discussion should be to convert Nina to the Shinsengumi (LOL )and you cant fault us for trying
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Swordsman Reply with quote
Wicked Iemon wrote:
I think the whole object of this discussion should be to convert Nina to the Shinsengumi (LOL )and you cant fault us for trying
I'll be meeting you at Narita Airport for our swordfight!!!! Just Kidding Just Kidding Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Dennis,
But what is your definition of fight? Will there be a designated combat area or are opponents free to move around anywhere? Can other weapons be used? How would you define "weapon?"


My good friends, Guido and Carmine, happen to be vacationing in Charlotte at this time. They have graciously accepted my request to define the meaning of cruel and unusal punishment on you.. er, I mean for you. Say, your place? 8:00 pm?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dennis,

Sounds good to me. What parts of them would you like mailed back to you?


平和,

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Dennis,
Sounds good to me. What parts of them would you like mailed back to you?


hhmmm.. well, I must confess my knees have been giving me trouble..
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was a record that the Mibu Roshigumi(later shinsengumi) had kenjutsu match in front of Matsudaira Katamori in 1863/4/16.

I wonder if the record describes who won.
Does anybody know what the primary source was?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Swordsman Reply with quote
Wicked Iemon wrote:
I think the whole object of this discussion should be to convert Nina to the Shinsengumi (LOL )and you cant fault us for trying


Then you'll have to convert me too Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm a new Shinsengumi convert. Long live the Bakufu-death to the Loyalists!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not a fan of the Shinsengumi or the Cho-Sat-To extremists. These guys are not the kind of people I would want to swill sake with... They were all a bunch of prejudiced, calculating and ambitious death-dealers who wouldn't hesitate to cut down any single one of us! But, heck, the waning days of the Shogunate is so interesting because of all the intrigue, drama and action. There are so many fascinating characters to study from this time period! Viva Katsu Kaishu! He's my favorite from this era! The man was as slick as his old Edo accent!

Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Viva Katsu Kaishu! He's my favorite from this era! The man was as slick as his old Edo accent!


そいつぁ てぇしたもんだ
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Shinsengumi or the Cho-Sat-To extremists. These guys are not the kind of people I would want to swill sake with... They were all a bunch of prejudiced, calculating and ambitious death-dealers who wouldn't hesitate to cut down any single one of us! But, heck, the waning days of the Shogunate is so interesting because from all the intrigue, drama and action. There are so many fascinating characters to study from this time period! Viva Katsu Kaishu! He's my favorite from this era! The man was as slick as his old Edo accent!
I agree with you. Here is my own Main Man of the Bakumatsu:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: KATSU Reply with quote
Katsu liked the Shinsengumi though its in his letters ,its interesting because he hated all the other Tokugawa militias but for these guys he had a soft spot .And yes i suppose the fact they did what he said had a lot to do with it.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Please back on topic.
Quote:
Who is the best swordman in the Shinsengumi?
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
だれが一番?

満中こちゃ!もちろん、沖田総司だよ!ほかの新撰組の方は上手、でも沖田~あいつどえらいことやりよったな!
Standard Japanese =あいつとほうもないことをしおったな!



二番は藤堂か永倉です。近藤はえらいいばっとる。
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed,

How asking about the sword skill of a member any different than "studying actual people?" Their combative skill is just as important as any other aspect of their lives. Knowledge of their skill can lead to understanding of how they achieved their leadership positions.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Wave Tossed,

How asking about the sword skill of a member any different than "studying actual people?" Their combative skill is just as important as any other aspect of their lives. Knowledge of their skill can lead to understanding of how they achieved their leadership positions.


平和,

マット
Exactly. The measure of sword skill is a part of the study of actual people. With many people -- including most of those in the Shinsengumi, who are the people in question here -- sword skills are a major part of the actual person.

However, to center totally on technical sword skill, to the exclusion of everything else in a person is narrowing the scope far too much. Technical sword skills are a major PART of the people we are studying. Technical sword skills are NOT the whole person. Which is why I find the measurements of sword skills, at the exclusion of everything else, to be rather meaningless. Just my opinion.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed,

Of course. I doubt that the purpose of this thread was to look at sword skill without thinking of anything else. To get the ball rolling on in depth study one has to start with the simple question (like who is better at sword work) and then work outwardly to the causal connections.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Wave Tossed,

Of course. I doubt that the purpose of this thread was to look at sword skill without thinking of anything else. To get the ball rolling on in depth study one has to start with the simple question (like who is better at sword work) and then work outwardly to the causal connections.


平和,

マット
Sorry. But the post reminded me of some of the fan-boy/fan-girl stuff I've seen i.e. "Who is the best swordsman? Miyamoto Musashi? Yagyu Jubei? Ogami Itto?" Yep, I've seen this one, too -- fictional characters compared to real people. Confused

If what I described above wasn't the true intention, then what I would have added is something about how sword skills integrate with a person's whole character, with their role in history and then such a discussion could be carried out.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am also interested in this aspect; for instance it was the ambition of samurai from the outlying han to go to Edo to study with masters of the sword. Which were the best known schools, who were the masters, what were the differences in style, and how did this affect the group we are studying?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
1.Genbukan, Hokushin Itto Ryu, Chiba Shusaku
2.Renpeikan, Shinto Munen Ryu, Saito Yakuro
3.Shigakukan, Kyoshinmeichi Ryu, Momoi Shunzo
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
I am also interested in this aspect; for instance it was the ambition of samurai from the outlying han to go to Edo to study with masters of the sword. Which were the best known schools, who were the masters, what were the differences in style, and how did this affect the group we are studying?
Now this sort of stuff, I'm interested in. According to all that I've read, the kenjutsu schools played huge roles in the various bakumatsu events. Participation in particular sword schools sometimes determined the ultimate role that a particular man would play in the forthcoming events and battles. Many of the schools taught not only kenjutsu but political ideologies as well. I'd be curious to know which schools were connected to which political tendencies (i.e. pro or anti-bakufu, emperor, expelling the foreigners, etc.).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Renpeikan was prefered by Choshu han = Sonno Joi.
The place where Renpeikan was now inside of Yasukuni shrine.
http://bakumatu.blog82.fc2.com/blog-entry-143.html
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