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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Ezo Republic Reply with quote
Greetings all,

Was the Ezo Republic ever officially recognized by a foreign entity? I know that French advisors provided assistance and were present during the Battles of Hakodate, but were they there in an official capacity?


平和,

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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jules Brunet and his followers defected from the French Army(Navy?) and joined with the Bakufu troops.
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niitsu kakunoshin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Jules Brunet and his followers defected from the French Army(Navy?) and joined with the Bakufu troops.


Does anyone know why he and his followers defected? What would make them think that was a good idea?
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know why they wanted to join the Bakufu troops.
The reason why they defected was because they didn't want the French government to get troubled.(Taking side of Anti-Meiji government)
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku,

Thank you for the clarification. I figure that the reasoning behind it was if the anti-Meiji group won then Brunet and his cohorts would have been welcomed back into official French service and the French would have slid comfortably into the Ally seat with the Bakufu. If they failed (and they did) then the French could not have offically been seen as assisting in the matter and could wash their hands of the situation.


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niitsu kakunoshin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
shikisoku,

Thank you for the clarification. I figure that the reasoning behind it was if the anti-Meiji group won then Brunet and his cohorts would have been welcomed back into official French service and the French would have slid comfortably into the Ally seat with the Bakufu. If they failed (and they did) then the French could not have offically been seen as assisting in the matter and could wash their hands of the situation.


平和,

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Makes sense, but why on earth would they even be compelled to leave the French ranks and join the Japanese in the first place and risk not being able to rejoin the French? I'm just curious why they thought leaving the French was a good idea at all. Why risk it? They should have just let the Japanese figure it out and stay out of it, then they had nothing to lose at all.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What interesting is when the French returned to France after the battle of Hakodate, French people were so sympathetic to them, therefore they weren't prosecuted in the military tribunal.
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niitsu kakunoshin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Interesting. They were lucky. I would think they would be punished.


IMO, the French defectors were sympathetic to the Bakufu retainers (so that they joined) and French people and the government understood them.
Before the battle of Toba-Fushimi, France supported Bakufu, Britain supported Sat-Cho.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

It depends on if the defection was a ploy or not. If it was planned like I had described above then the fact that it failed just made it so that they could not be blamed and, as such, "took one for the team" to keep France out of trouble.


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niitsu kakunoshin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

It depends on if the defection was a ploy or not. If it was planned like I had described above then the fact that it failed just made it so that they could not be blamed and, as such, "took one for the team" to keep France out of trouble.


平和,

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Makes sense... but why even risk been injured or killed in battle helping the Japanese at all? Why not say "You guys figure this thing out and we'll talk to you about it when the dust settles". Why help out in a war that has nothing to do with you, even if you do prefer one side? ( Than again, America's gotten itself involved in plenty of conflicts like that Cool )
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

France, at that time, was getting itself involved in all kinds of things. It, along with England, "unofficially" helped the Confederacy during the War Between the States with apparant secret hopes that the country would split and they would have an ally with the Confederacy. It is possible that this was more "unofficialy" playing. The French did appear to be taking a bigger risk this time though especially since they had a ship observing the Naval Battle of Hakodate. Quite a trip to make.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

France, at that time, was getting itself involved in all kinds of things. It, along with England, "unofficially" helped the Confederacy during the War Between the States with apparant secret hopes that the country would split and they would have an ally with the Confederacy. It is possible that this was more "unofficialy" playing. The French did appear to be taking a bigger risk this time though especially since they had a ship observing the Naval Battle of Hakodate. Quite a trip to make.


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Interesting. I did know the French were involved with the Confederates, but the English? Doesn't surprise me.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

The Enfield rifles were of British manufacture and a British representative (an officer in the Coldstream Guards) was in the Confederate camp during Gettysburg. Plus the British were pretty big customers for Confederate goods.
Along the lines of really "unofficial" assistance, there were two oceanic ironclads being built by a British manufacturer for the Confederacy. Union representatives in England pressured the government enough (through argument of Neutrality law) to force the builder to sell the vessels to another entity.
They tried the same thing with a similar ironclad being built in France but the builder was more creative. He sold the ship to Denmark who then retured the sale, freeing the builder to sell to whoever they wanted. As such the ship was sold to the Confederates.
Got to love political wrangling.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

The Enfield rifles were of British manufacture and a British representative (an officer in the Coldstream Guards) was in the Confederate camp during Gettysburg. Plus the British were pretty big customers for Confederate goods.
Along the lines of really "unofficial" assistance, there were two oceanic ironclads being built by a British manufacturer for the Confederacy. Union representatives in England pressured the government enough (through argument of Neutrality law) to force the builder to sell the vessels to another entity.
They tried the same thing with a similar ironclad being built in France but the builder was more creative. He sold the ship to Denmark who then retured the sale, freeing the builder to sell to whoever they wanted. As such the ship was sold to the Confederates.
Got to love political wrangling.


平和,

マット


Interesting stuff. Smile
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

My thesis focuses around the French ironclad mentioned at the end of that post. Hopefully I will get it done within the next year or so...


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niitsu kakunoshin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

My thesis focuses around the French ironclad mentioned at the end of that post. Hopefully I will get it done within the next year or so...


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The Kotetsu right? Didn't we talk about that in the Japanese Trivia topic one time?
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

Yep. The Sphinx, Staerkodder, Olinde, CSS Stonewall, USS Stonewall, Koutetsu, Azuma. So much information to wade through...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

Yep. The Sphinx, Staerkodder, Olinde, CSS Stonewall, USS Stonewall, Koutetsu, Azuma. So much information to wade through...


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It must be easier to find information and historical sites on the Civil War where your located right? I've been to a few famous sites including Gettysburg.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

Virginia is the treasure trove for that information. There is a museum up there that has the original log book for the CSS Stonewall for the trans-Atlantic voyage. First free chance I get I am heading up there with a camera to photograph as many pages as they will allow.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

Virginia is the treasure trove for that information. There is a museum up there that has the original log book for the CSS Stonewall for the trans-Atlantic voyage. First free chance I get I am heading up there with a camera to photograph as many pages as they will allow.


平和,

マット


I've been to Virginia a few times actually. My Dad is REALLY into the Civil and Revolutionary Wars. He took me to all sorts of cool sites all over the country. I've read a few of the MANY books he has in his home office library on both the wars. I'm always fascinated by history in any form... just not quite as much as Japanese or Asian history.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Interesting. They were lucky. I would think they would be punished.


IMO, the French defectors were sympathetic to the Bakufu retainers (so that they joined) and French people and the government understood them.
Before the battle of Toba-Fushimi, France supported Bakufu, Britain supported Sat-Cho.
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