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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jeff,

Not to quible, but is Kuroda sensei's line of Tamiya Ryu not called "Shin Tamiya Ryu?"

And as to the effectiveness of their technique, that is what I have been commenting on. It seems tome, again not to say that I know anything whatsoever, that their balance and techique of the kiri itsself would not be to effective. Koden Enshin Ryu has its reasons I am sure, and I am not Doubting the ryu I am questioning the exponets as to whether they are displaying those traits properly. But again this ryu is far from that of my own, so truely I can not make a definate remark, only bring out my own assumptions.

As to the commonality of leaving an heir to the head of a koryu kenjutsu/battojutsu ryu I am curious to see how common this is. Would you please provide some examples ?
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jdmcowan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Sakai Reply with quote
Bushikan wrote:
Shintaido-ka attack like aikido-ka.


I'd be interested in hearing more about that. I study aikido and at our dojo we work very hard at atemi. I do not take offense at what you have said, I just wish to understand my art better. I would say that we attack similarly to the typical karatedoka. Does your above statement apply to the typical karatedoka or is our dojo just different from typical aikido?

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Try not to be too hard on Chris Cudell.


What bugs me about him is his oversensationalism of everything. Everything's magical, mystical, "fantastic", and "unbelievable". He acts like a teenager who has never done any serious study but thinks he knows everything. However, the few times when he tries his hand at something he surprises me with his capability. He may actually know a thing or two, but you don't get that impression from most of his commentary in this documentary.

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Koden Eishin Ryu is not as pretty but none the less Koryu,

...
Quote:
The decission is his to premote his daughter to sucessor, for some lineages this is not an uncommen practice. He sees something in her an thats enough


I know Kuroda sensei considers his style to be a family style and feels that it should be passed down within the family. Maybe Tanaka sensei doesn't even see anything special in her and still feels like it is hers to inherit. But I don't mean to imply that she has no capability whatsoever. She just seems, to me, very inexperienced. The things I've noticed about her that seem odd are not repeated by Tanaka sensei or the other students they interact with in the video. It may just be that she only recently accepted her position and is a relative beginner, or something. What surprised me most is that they allowed her inexperience to represent the future of the ryu in this video.

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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Sakai Reply with quote
jdmcowan wrote:
What surprised me most is that they allowed her inexperience to represent the future of the ryu in this video.


They probably didn't think about it, since it was a foreign non-serious fanboy show.
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Baian
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Sakai Reply with quote
Bushikan wrote:



Koden Eishin Ryu is not as pretty but none the less Koryu, and was consitered valuable enough people staked thier lives on the style's methodologies at one time. The decission is his to premote his daughter to sucessor, for some lineages this is not an uncommen practice. He sees something in her an thats enough, keep in mind not all styles are pretty but that does not take away from thier effectiveness (though the cuts are very wide and apparent I'm sure there is some sort of reasoning behind it).

I'm my opinion Tenshin Rishin Ryu is not a very eligant style either but has very good methods for close combat particulary swords (very adept to indoor/in you face combat). So without knowing the ryu-ha or seeing what it is like to be on the recieving end of thier attack, don't be too critical.



Don't mean to be rude, but...who talked about elegance? It's about logic and praticality we talked. Whatever pseudo-logic someone might think there is behind swinging a sword like a baseball bat, it just doesn't work like that.

Most of the koryu have been created during times of war(except for those of Edo). That means this required you to move with an armor in those days. Now, put on an armor, move like they did and swing your sword. Result? You'll either break your back or crash on the ground.
You know, I may be wrong on this, but that's what I see through my little experience. To understand the art of a koryu, put yourself in the mindset of the period and it'll bear fruits.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: explanation Reply with quote
alot happens when you at a mid-term hu..

ok...

to begin with rikoshin's question about tamiya ryu there are two kinds, both with different kanji and very different content:
Tamiya Ryu (Kanagawa)- founded by Tamiya Heibei Narimasa. it focuses on "Tamiya Nobility and Tamiya Purity" believeing in proper kihon, mindset, and application
Shin-Tamiya Ryu was founded in 1840s-60s. While the name of the founder excapes me at the current moment it main focus is sen sen no sen (taking the initiave). it is much more agressive than Tamiya Ryu proper (in my opinion)
Tamiya Ryu (Saitama)was founded by: Tamiya Gon-emon. It has a much bigger repitoir than Kanagawa-Tamiya Ryu and Shin-Tamiya Ryu. Have 70 something technique which are very unique and interesting (Kuroda Sensei diplays them beautifuly)
2)generational handown
Kuroda's family martial arts consist of:(Kuroda Ryugi)Komagawa Kaishin Ryu Kenjutsu
Tamiya Ryu Iaijutsu
Shishin Takuma Ryu Jujutsu
Tsubaki Kotengu Ryu Bojutsu and..
Seigyoku Oguri Ryu
these arts have been handed down 3 generations now from his grandfather to father and now Tezutsuran Kuroda himself.
Suio Ryu Iaia Kenpo
web site says it all:
http://www.suioryu-usa.org/history.html
Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu:
pure yagyu. web site:
http://www.interq.or.jp/sun/shibata/yagyu-official/yagyu.html
Kashima Shin ryu
Kuni, Kuni, Kuni web site:
http://www.kashima-shinryu.jp/English/i_history.html
shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu
Nakayama Hakudo
Nakayama Zendo

many more if you look....

3)
Quote:
To understand the art of a koryu, put yourself in the mindset of the period and it'll bear fruits.


I completly agree ryu-ha are a product of thier time and function. Sendai ha Yagyu Shigan Ryu is a perfect example of battle field combat, as Goto ha Yagyu Shigan Ryu adapted to fit the (Edojidai). Takenouchi Ryu is a complete system of combat using may weapons, armor, and unarmored fighting. Shindo Munen Ryu and Mugai Ryu are examples of styles formulated in the edojidai, no adaptation for armored combat. Each one was very good at what it does and depending on which one you dedicate youself to is the one you will end up representing (technique, mindset, and moral principles).

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Don't mean to be rude, but...who talked about elegance? It's about logic and praticality we talked. Whatever pseudo-logic someone might think there is behind swinging a sword like a baseball bat, it just doesn't work like that
.

You'r method is logical to you not to them, and thats all that matters(your opinion is you own/mine and vice versa for them). I'm sure Tanaka does not use the sword in that fashion when facing an opponent (there is only one way to find out). The same way Shindo Munen ryu does not use its awarkward suburi execises for practical cutting nor kumitachi or fighting, but we still have them as a practice. Fighting is fighting, cutting is cutting, suburi is suburi, and so on....

hope this helps
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jeff,

Sorry I should have been more specific. The way your posts reads, it seems that you are implying that many kenjutsu/batojutsu ryu have practiced promoting daughters to succed their fathers (operative word being daughters). Is this what you meant to say, because first of I have never heard of any doing that which is whay I am so boggled, and second there aresevral things wrong with that historically speaking.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Daughters? Reply with quote
No, I thought you mean family relitive (men). Although techically one of Kashima Shin Ryu's sokes is a female the 19th I believe (daughter of Kuni Zenya I believe). Seki Hugh Fujiwara no Humitake like Ōtake Risuke are the shihanke, are incharge of maintaining the lineage. The current soke of TSKSR is Iizasa Yoshisada (20th headmaster).

Chances are Tanaka does not have a son, and wishes to pass it one to his daughter (deserving or not). It is his choice, and for us to debate such an issue is fruitless. He feels that she should inherit it, and thats all that matters. I'm sure no one debated with the headmaster of Toda ha Buko Ryu when he appointed the first female headmaster.

If someday you should become a headmaster of a ryu-ha (most of us being gaikokujin this is very unlikly) we will see how you decide. Family (deserving or not), student (deserving or not), or to just let the line die: like Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Shinmuto Ryu - Muso Shinden Ryu, Katayama Hoki iai Ryu, Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu, Daito Ryu, and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
I feel Muso jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu best illistrates this, from teacher to teacher the iai is different, some practice none of the kumitachi, some do the Tachi Uchi no Kurai, and some do all of them. Some are taught from the densho others are not even aware of thier existance. Completely scattered to the wind and unorginised. A headmaster (deserving or not) can prevent such occurences however, as he is the ultimate authority of the Ryu. He maintians its preformance and tradition. And while he/she may not be the ultimate guru of the ryu-ha it does not mean he/she could not create a very skillled student or sucessor. The ability to teach and the ability to preform are two very different things. While the decision may be clear in you head now with time it may change. When your near the end of your life and incharge of maintaining a 300-500 year old tradition we will see how you choose. Controled continuation and preservation of leaving the tradition up to different high ranking students. Which being in a great position of power will most likely choose to start thier own branch and claim authority like Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Theres a saying I like I foget who said it but I feel it applies best to this situation: "life is what happens when your making other plans". Future hold many uncertian posibilities, all a person can do is work hard to be where they want to be in life and what will happen can and will happen.

regards
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