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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Impressive. You have to be very rich to have all the
time to properly train in 4 (four) different Ryu
together. It have to take all the 7 days of a week.
So, no work for you. Just training.
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Bushikan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Training Reply with quote
I'm diffidently not rich it would be nice so I could train with impunity, but alas I'm not. I train in the Yushinkan Dojo. I am bound by "The Society to Preserve the Teachings of Nakayama Hakudo" thus I learn all the arts he passed on. Shindo Munen Ryu, Shinto Muso Ryu, Shinmuto Ryu-Muso Shinden Ryu, and Shinken Shobu. Its actually not expencive. Sensei charges 10000 yen a year and 4000 yen a month. 4 hours per class on the week days and Sataurady, and 5-6 on Sundays Its about training not money making, Japan is much cheaper than America in terms of training. Its finding an affordable housing thats tough.
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Last edited by Bushikan on Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:57 am    Post subject: tachi Reply with quote
Hi Jeff, The jokoto tachi is the long straight sword that was used prior to the development of what we think of as the nihonto. The jokoto tachi was a copy of Chinese design. The nihonto is curved and these had significant curvature (sori). Early on primarily Koshizori. I find "katana is not usually used by practitioners, but more by foreigners" a fallacious statement. Do not confuse Daito with Odachi etc. John
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Bushikan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: tachi Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
I find "katana is not usually used by practitioners, but more by foreigners" a fallacious statement


You are completely right about the different swords, you diffidently have more knowledge about the subject than I do. I have had the opportunity to use swords from the Bizen, Edo, and Showa eras. But being from schools which developed around the time of the Tokugawa, I focus and use swords with Higo and Tensho fittings (I prefer the Higo style and dislike the Jidai).

I used the word "find", thus through my experience I found that the word "to" was used more than Katana. I can't remember a Japanese person using the word katana in a dialog with me. I heard Shinken, to, and daito. This is just my findings from my experiences. Your's differ from mine. It is not fallacious statement because I did not state it as fact.
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Re: tachi Reply with quote
Bushikan wrote:
from the Bizen,


Bizen is not an Era.

Bushikan wrote:
I have had the opportunity to use swords from the Bizen, Edo, and Showa eras. But being from schools which developed around the time of the Tokugawa, I focus and use swords with Higo and Tensho fittings (I prefer the Higo style and dislike the Jidai


Almost all the remaining schools that are not
Koryu (and you can HARDLY enter a real Koryu being a
gaikokujin...) are from Tokugawa era...
Here are 11,41 PM so Tokyo is 07,41 AM.
How can you be at your PC this time ?
Not in Tokyo ?
And I not only have the opportunity to handle such
swords. I OWN them (Bizen apart being not a period,
replaced by Koto, Bizen SCHOOL).
Obviously you've never handled a good old blade with
actual fittings if you dislike the Jidai (meaning as
old) ones.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: errors Reply with quote
Hi Carlo, I noticed the errors in that post too. I attributed it to language difficulties and did not comment. John
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: tachi Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
Bizen is not an Era.


Doh!

Actually, I prefer the Soshu era. Very Happy
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: errors Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Hi Carlo, I noticed the errors in that post too. I attributed it to language difficulties and did not comment. John


Jeff is an english name...
East coast has a more reliable tim zone considering
the hours those posts were made...

But I'm just assuming.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: kanji Reply with quote
Hi All, The use of the kanji 'to' was bothering me, so, I consulted Nelson. I include some of the entries for this kanji where it means, a sword and in combination where it means a knife. This is what I meant by context. No big deal. John


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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What I meant when I asked to search how "Naginata" is written. i've not IME on my computer at work, but
the same character is used often when you've a cutting edge.
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Bushikan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:04 am    Post subject: Location Reply with quote
I'm not in Tokyo right now, I'm in New Jersey. I'll be returning in 10 weeks. I have it listed as Tokyo so I don't have to change it later. The way I have seen it discribed Bizen was a period of swordmaking no. But as you discribe it was a school. Shindo Munen Ryu was founded in the 1700's, Shinto Muso Ryu in the 1600's and Shinmuto Ryu Muso Shinden Ryu in the 1500's but has been reoginsed three times first under Hasegawa Chikara no Suke Eishin and then the second under Matsuyoshi Teisuke (Shinsuke) Hisanari and lastly by Nakayama Hakudo. All the styles I practice are not based around fighting in Armor as say Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, Takenouchi Ryu, Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Ryu, and Yagyu Shigan Ryu are. And by the way arts made after the fall of the Bakufu are consitered Gendai Budo ex. Aikido, Judo, Kendo, kyudo, Toyama Ryu, and so forth. What I mean by "Tokugawa" was the arts I practice were adapted to fit that period (Edo). Swords are worn differently, than armored schools would wear them. This was my intention, I also appologise for not responding sooner, I don't have my computer here, so I have to use a public one. And sorry if my english is gramaticaly incorrect I speak two languages proficiently enough, and a thrid roughly. I'm hoping to let the third die out to focus on Japanese and English. Lastly I prefer the higo fittings because I feel more comfortable, Saitou Yakuro and Nakayama Hakudo both used Higo fittings over the others, its a personal preferance. Blades can be put in other fittings right its not that difficult. Jidai is your preference not mine.
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend/4373/vol_077.htm

So, are the only differences between 刀 and 剣 as follows:

1. 刀 has a curviature, while the 剣 is straight
2. The width of the 刀 blade is wider than the 剣
3. 刀 are single-sided blades
4. 剣 are thinner, straighter, and double-sided blades.

Looking at pictures like this: http://www.jomon-no-mori.jp/jimages/katana1.jpg

I get the idea that 刀 are also longer than the 剣, with the 剣 being on the left side of the picture and the 刀 on the right.

Is this generally true? Are there other differences that more experienced members have picked up through their studies?

I'm using the kanji because I'm not exactly sure whether I should call 剣 a "ken" or "tsurugi" when I'm talking about it without any attached kanji. I'm leaning towards "tsurugi" but then some website ends up using "ken" and it's all a big mess of not knowing much on this subject.

Thanks,
Nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Generally speaking. There are exceptions of course as in everything. The kiriha-zukuri tachi of the Nara period was straight and single edged. The Kogarasu-maru by Amakuni is an example of a two edged sword in the kissaki-moroha style that is curved. Nothing is simple, eh? John
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend/4373/vol_077.htm

So, are the only differences between 刀 and 剣 as follows:

1. 刀 has a curviature, while the 剣 is straight
2. The width of the 刀 blade is wider than the 剣
3. 刀 are single-sided blades
4. 剣 are thinner, straighter, and double-sided blades.

Looking at pictures like this: http://www.jomon-no-mori.jp/jimages/katana1.jpg

I get the idea that 刀 are also longer than the 剣, with the 剣 being on the left side of the picture and the 刀 on the right.

Is this generally true? Are there other differences that more experienced members have picked up through their studies?


Not so simple at all. 刀 is applied more when there
is a cutting edge rather then a curved blade, even if
its use in curved blades names is more common (maybe
simply because such blades are more common in
japanese culture).

So :

太刀 : Tachi

Kogarasumaru style tachi has double edge
(half of the back) and curvature.
Warabite-no-tachi have either straight blade and
single edge BUT some with a small double edge in
the point and others very curved blades,
depends on the model.
太刀 is always (AFAIK...) used in the name
for both straight and curved types blades.
Very ancient Kinginden so no Karatachi or Kanto no
Tachi are straight, single edge, as the much smaller
type Heidatsu Tachi (ancient wakizashi?).
So the use of 刀 is not really a rule about lenght
or width or curvature.
This statement is supported by the writing of :

短刀 : Tanto

There is a so large variety of blades that
I've not the time to enlist all of them, but they
comprehend either curved and straight blades, single
and double edged.

小刀 : Kogatana. The smaller blade in NihonTo.
Almost everytime single edged, but straight.

Some more...

稚刀 Naginata

Curved blade single edged almost everytime but
with large variety of lenght. A very few with
a partial second cutting edge on the back.
It's A POLEARM, but still with the 刀 character.
So the character is NOT related to blades that you
handle directly (sideblades is correct in english ?)
Pronounce is different (and here is a matter for Tony
because I don't dare to try to explain it...)

When I mean cutting edge I mean a real, effective
one not the false cutting edge used to balance
many types of japanese blades.

Hope to have confused you enough. If not please
ask for details... Laughing
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