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Koryu Battoujutsu/Kenjutsu Vid Discussion

 
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Koryu Battoujutsu/Kenjutsu Vid Discussion Reply with quote
I would like to begin a general discussion of the videos I have posted so far, and will continue to. The topics can be of anything from what is the name of the kata/waza they did, what is the philosophy of that ryu, or for those who know nothing about sword arts: "what are hey doing?" So please lets get a good chat going and hopefully we will all walk away with a nice tidbit of knowledge.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

Sounds interesting. I will give a second look at the videos on that big thread and have something useful when I go back on shift tomorrow.


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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt,

Take your time, oh and maybe I will start another thread about the discussion of seitei kata. Think you would be interested in that?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

I will do what I can. I assume that we are going to avoid critiques on performance.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt,

Yes, for the majority the practioner's performace is not a topic, unless there is such a glaring error that it can not not be brought up.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

Sounds good to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I really would like to get this topic rolling, just so we can have a general discussion dealing with the different aspects of the above mentioned topic. So I will ask the first question.

What are the noticeable differences between those ryu that were founded during the sengoku jidai, and those that came in the Edo jidai? This can include anything from technique of cutting, stance, or even to te no uchi.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: some differences not all Reply with quote
sengoku jidai schools centered around battle field combat, ex. Araki Ryu, TSKSR, Takenouchi Ryu, Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Ryu, Aseyama Ichiden Ryu, Tatsumi Ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu (it was once a sogo bujutsu, now they are tring to revive some of the curriculim), Kashima Shinto Ryu, and others. First thing is armored combat, stances are wider, and the targets are different. They center around the use of many weapons. Each style has unique useage of weapons and techniques, senjutsu and hyoho are topics also covered in these ryu-ha. Jujutsu becomes essentisal for navagating a battlefield. Anyone could become a samurai until Hideyoshi Toyotomi, fixed the class to bloodline.

Around the edo jidai, unarmored styles became paramount. ex. Shinkage Ryu (and its varrious schools), Itto Ryu (and its varrious schools), Shigenobu Ryu (and its varrious schools), plus others. These schools begin to specialize in one or more weapons (meaning fewer), rather than many. Targets change to the whole body, some older styles adapt to meet these changes (Goto ha Yagyu Shigan Ryu). Samurai adopt the sword as the main weapon, and the naginata becomes the woman's weapon. The Spear schools loose prominence and begin to decline. Some samurai dont even consiter buying armor, and many never experience even putting it on. In reference to sword play, kamaes narrow in size, movements also change, sword sizes are regulated. Most new conflicts are fought, between two or more indivduals, and the duel becomes popular. The warrior class adapts by becoming adiministrators, philosophers, monks, and scholars. During the Bakamatsu many samurai stopped practicing bujutsu all together. Shinsengumi and Chosu factions often complained about this fact, and prior to the battles which lead to the fall of the Shogunate, warriors were often less paid, and not sought out by lords. In comparison to thier educated counterparts.

These are many differences between the two people can elaborate on things covered (or not) in this summary. These are some of what I consiter to be, major points between ryu-ha of these era's (this is not to say there are not more, there are).

hope this helps
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: some differences not all Reply with quote
I've seen all the videos and am now going back and re-watching them in an effort to get as technical as possible because I think that this has the potential to be an excellent topic of discussion. First of all though, some thoughts offhand, some of which I believe Bushikan just stated... Some fundamental differences between styles from the Sengoku and those from the Edo period mostly arise obviously from the fact that there are no more large scale battles involving horses, armor and various battlefield weapons. Styles from the Sengoku were often designed with an emphasis on attacking weak points in armor. Something else that may be a matter of opinion to some people but I believe that the techniques and movement used mostly in Sengoku styles is designed in manner that would enable a practioner to potentially engage multiple oppenents and allow them the capability to maneuver in a battle. I will elaborate with specific examples after I watch more. Another thing about Sengoku styles is that they usually teach more weapons many of which were sort of seen as obsolete, I guess, since the age of big battles ended. I could go on and on with many theories of mine on stances, movement and techniques but I'll save that for when I've watched more of the videos.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:55 pm    Post subject: Segoku Ryu-ha Reply with quote
There are not many of these schools displayed in these videos. I'll begin with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. Thier Omote no Tachi is to be done in armor, movements are blockyer. Jodan strikes are preformed on the side of the head, and the way it is done is brilliant exposing the weak part under the arm, for a very shot period of time, unlike other style which would leave it more exposed. One can notice that in itsutsu no tachi the shidachi strikes the inner right forearm, avoiding the kote on the outside. Which in armored combat is a target not often though of, most people associate the throat, and under the arms as the main targets. But as one can clearly see if you watch preformances of TSKSR, Takenouchi Ryu, Araki Ryu, and Kukishinden Ryu, and Tatsumi Ryu is the uchidachi often strikes to positions where armor is clearly present. And why is this? Because there is more than one person and who's not to say someone else is going to attack you too. A Fighter moves through the battle quickly doing what they can to survive and progress. If I hit you hard enough with a helmet you are still going to get trauma (concussion, knocking you to a direction with enough force, these are things which end a fight quickly, ask any boxer the two worst things that can end an fighters will is: a shot to the jaw, or slamming the brain against the back of an opponents skull, one can notice the daze; as the human body does its best to recover and responds). After which you can finish the person off or just move to the next. When you practice your usualy taught the ideal situation, hoping you will respond accordingly when it presents itself, but noting ever goes as expected and the road to anything battle or not has several twists and turns in it.
Gogyo no Tachi which is done without armor. The heiho also changes, movements are quicker and battles are fought with a closer sense or maii. The jodan strike changes from Omote no Tachi being placed above the head instead of the side. One can see that Omote no Bo and Omote no Naginata, the uchidachi is moving without armor. In itsutsu no naginata the shidachi cuts clearly across the stomach before proforming the normal ending strike.

At one time TSKSR also had horsemanship, musketry, and swiming in it curriculim. This is something which sets it apart from others. The only other sogo bujutsu I am aware of which still has horsemanship (outside of Yasubume), and swiming is Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho Ryu. Truly a remarkable style, and while there are many things one can discuss in terms of techniques and heiho but this is enough for now. Keep in mind I am completely unqualified to talk about such a Ryu-ha, and am just mentioning things which I noticed and what I said is in no way law. It would be hard to actualy hear any discription from an Otake student, one might want to try a Sugino (they seem to be more open to discussion). While in Sugino ha the techniques may be modified (ex. Kusunagi no ken in Sugino ha is very different from TSKSR proper) they still seem to embody the same spirit.

If anyone has questions, or seeks anwsers from a truly qualified individual Phil Relnick is the person to ask:
[url]prelnick@tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org [url]
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Since we're one the subject of TSKSR, I attempted to find a better demonstration of how the movement is suited for battlefield combat. This was the best I could find for now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYjFpb1G4D4&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUVzT9tvquY&mode=related&search=

The videos I found may not be the greatest but I think they help better illustrate how the movement in TSKSR was designed for battlefield fighting. The footwork is direct and the angles are close and less pronounced. Bushikan mentioned the blockier movement which is also beneficial when considering being surrounded by potential attackers and various sharp pointy objects. I also find it interesting because in other styles and other martial arts, handling the idea of multiple potential attackers is done differently with a different emphasis on how the gaps between opponents are closed and how to be aware of and maneuver around others. In many koryu, I have found that it seems as though the issue of managing multiple attackers is handled in a much more logical way. As Bushikan said before the strikes as well as movement are designed in such a way as to immediately stun or eliminate an opponent as effortlessly as possible enabling a practitioner to neutralize them in a relative instant rather than attempt to decide how to deal with them in a more complicated fashion. I'm not sure if anyone would agree with my observations but I'm just throwing them out there to keep the discussion going.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anou....you mean you tried to find more? Ah, both the are listed on the main thread. And sorry I have not commented on my own thread yet, been busy. I will try and get to it tonight.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
Anou....you mean you tried to find more? Ah, both the are listed on the main thread. And sorry I have not commented on my own thread yet, been busy. I will try and get to it tonight.


I meant I couldn't find more so I just referenced those.
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