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maikeruart
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Budo: The Art of Killing Reply with quote
I just happened to catch a documentry on Martial Arts
called Budo the Art of Killing (1973) on showtime

I thought the bit they did on Sumo was good. The Karate segemts were too stylylized and were leaning towards the hollywood glamificiatiion of MA.

Maikeru
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:
I just happened to catch a documentry on Martial Arts
called Budo the Art of Killing (1973) on showtime

I thought the bit they did on Sumo was good. The Karate segemts were too stylylized and were leaning towards the hollywood glamificiatiion of MA.

Maikeru


What? A reason to get Showtime? msr. iadoka says we should keep the convo about pre 20th century Japanese martial arts so uhh, when was Sumo invented? I don't know anything about it actually. I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia or something but I'd rather just ask someone here. I've never really seen it as a "martial art" , more like ol skoo Japanese WWF.
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maikeruart
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
maikeruart wrote:
I just happened to catch a documentry on Martial Arts
called Budo the Art of Killing (1973) on showtime

I thought the bit they did on Sumo was good. The Karate segemts were too stylylized and were leaning towards the hollywood glamificiatiion of MA.

Maikeru


What? A reason to get Showtime? msr. iadoka says we should keep the convo about pre 20th century Japanese martial arts so uhh, when was Sumo invented? I don't know anything about it actually. I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia or something but I'd rather just ask someone here. I've never really seen it as a "martial art" , more like ol skoo Japanese WWF.


Well the documentry showcases kenjutsu also.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
maikeruart wrote:
I just happened to catch a documentry on Martial Arts
called Budo the Art of Killing (1973) on showtime

I thought the bit they did on Sumo was good. The Karate segemts were too stylylized and were leaning towards the hollywood glamificiatiion of MA.

Maikeru


What? A reason to get Showtime? msr. iadoka says we should keep the convo about pre 20th century Japanese martial arts so uhh, when was Sumo invented? I don't know anything about it actually. I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia or something but I'd rather just ask someone here. I've never really seen it as a "martial art" , more like ol skoo Japanese WWF.


Well the documentry showcases kenjutsu also.


Well then... Maybe I'll see if I can get it on Showtime on Demand. I know this isn't about Japanese martial arts but it is about pre 20th century martial arts... did you see the show on Animal Planet about various styles of kung fu and how they are modeled after animal movement? I didn't really care for it but it's nice to see some sort of traditional martial arts on tv wherever it is. None of the people were impressive and much of it was showy wushu but whatever, they gave it a shot.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
maikeruart wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
maikeruart wrote:
I just happened to catch a documentry on Martial Arts
called Budo the Art of Killing (1973) on showtime

I thought the bit they did on Sumo was good. The Karate segemts were too stylylized and were leaning towards the hollywood glamificiatiion of MA.

Maikeru


What? A reason to get Showtime? msr. iadoka says we should keep the convo about pre 20th century Japanese martial arts so uhh, when was Sumo invented? I don't know anything about it actually. I suppose I could look it up on Wikipedia or something but I'd rather just ask someone here. I've never really seen it as a "martial art" , more like ol skoo Japanese WWF.


Well the documentry showcases kenjutsu also.


Well then... Maybe I'll see if I can get it on Showtime on Demand. I know this isn't about Japanese martial arts but it is about pre 20th century martial arts... did you see the show on Animal Planet about various styles of kung fu and how they are modeled after animal movement? I didn't really care for it but it's nice to see some sort of traditional martial arts on tv wherever it is. None of the people were impressive and much of it was showy wushu but whatever, they gave it a shot.


ill check if its on demand.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi All, Someone mentioned that they would like to know more about Sumo. I shall quote from a pamphlet that I got at the Osaka Basho a few years ago.
"According to Japanese legend the very origin of the Japanese race depended on the outcome of a sumo match. The supremacy of the Japanese people on the islands of Japan was supposedly established when the god, Takemikazuchi, won a sumo bout with the leader of a rival tribe. Apart from legend however, sumo is an ancient sport dating back some 1500 years.
Sechie-zumo: In the Nara Period, the Imperial Court gathered wrestlers from all over the country to hold a grand sumo tournament, called the sechie-zumo. It was a ceremonial banquet to celebrate peace on earth and bountiful harvests.
Its' origins were religious. The first sumo matches were a form of ritual dedicated to the gods with prayers for a bountiful harvest and were performed together with sacred dancing and dramas within the precincts of the shrines.
The Nara Period: (the 8th century)Sumo was introduced into the ceremonies of the Imperial Court. A wrestling festival was held annually which included music and dancing in which the victorious wrestlers participated. Early sumo was a rough and tumble affair combining elements of boxing and wrestling with few or no holds barred. But under the continued patronage of the Imperial Court rules were formulated and techniques developed so that it came to resemble the sumo of today.
A military dictatorship was established in Kamakura in 1192 and a long period of intense warfare ensued. Sumo, quite naturally, was regarded chiefly for its' military usefulness and as a means of increasing the efficiency of the fighting men. Later in the hands of the samurai, jujitsu was developed as an offshoot of sumo. Peace was finally restored when the different warring factions were united under the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1603. A period of prosperity followed, marked by the rise to power of the new mercantile classes.
Professional sumo groups were organised to entertain the rapidly expanding plebeian class and sumo came into its' own as the national sport of Japan. The present Japan Sumo Association has its' origins in these groups first formed in the Edo Period." John
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Hi All, Someone mentioned that they would like to know more about Sumo. I shall quote from a pamphlet that I got at the Osaka Basho a few years ago.
"According to Japanese legend the very origin of the Japanese race depended on the outcome of a sumo match. The supremacy of the Japanese people on the islands of Japan was supposedly established when the god, Takemikazuchi, won a sumo bout with the leader of a rival tribe. Apart from legend however, sumo is an ancient sport dating back some 1500 years.
Sechie-zumo: In the Nara Period, the Imperial Court gathered wrestlers from all over the country to hold a grand sumo tournament, called the sechie-zumo. It was a ceremonial banquet to celebrate peace on earth and bountiful harvests.
Its' origins were religious. The first sumo matches were a form of ritual dedicated to the gods with prayers for a bountiful harvest and were performed together with sacred dancing and dramas within the precincts of the shrines.
The Nara Period: (the 8th century)Sumo was introduced into the ceremonies of the Imperial Court. A wrestling festival was held annually which included music and dancing in which the victorious wrestlers participated. Early sumo was a rough and tumble affair combining elements of boxing and wrestling with few or no holds barred. But under the continued patronage of the Imperial Court rules were formulated and techniques developed so that it came to resemble the sumo of today.
A military dictatorship was established in Kamakura in 1192 and a long period of intense warfare ensued. Sumo, quite naturally, was regarded chiefly for its' military usefulness and as a means of increasing the efficiency of the fighting men. Later in the hands of the samurai, jujitsu was developed as an offshoot of sumo. Peace was finally restored when the different warring factions were united under the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1603. A period of prosperity followed, marked by the rise to power of the new mercantile classes.
Professional sumo groups were organised to entertain the rapidly expanding plebeian class and sumo came into its' own as the national sport of Japan. The present Japan Sumo Association has its' origins in these groups first formed in the Edo Period." John


I didn't know it was so old. That is very interesting. I wonder if the size and weight of wrestlers has changed as well. Did normal sized people used to do it too or where larger men always a standard due to the nature of the techniques?
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart,

I saw the first hour of that documentary and I have the rest recorded. It was...special. They could have cut 45 minutes out of it by removing the dramatic music montages and the 70s effects shots. Otherwise I am, in general, unimpressed so far. The first part of the sword section has not really show much more promise either.
On the plus side I am pleased that they are attempting to include as many arts as possible. However, the inclusion of aikidou and juudou kills any historical theme.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
the inclusion of aikidou and juudou kills any historical theme.


*shakes head side to side* Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
maikeruart,

I saw the first hour of that documentary and I have the rest recorded. It was...special. They could have cut 45 minutes out of it by removing the dramatic music montages and the 70s effects shots. Otherwise I am, in general, unimpressed so far. The first part of the sword section has not really show much more promise either.
On the plus side I am pleased that they are attempting to include as many arts as possible. However, the inclusion of aikidou and juudou kills any historical theme.

The dueling swordsman at the end was funny.



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: Good points Reply with quote
There was three good things about that movie (to me):
1)Seeing a demonstration of Hikida Shinkage Ryu which is rare
2)Shin Shin Muso Ryu Iaijutsu which was interesting
3)Obata Toshishiro getting his head cut off by Nakamura Taizo

other stuff was ok
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Good points Reply with quote
Bushikan wrote:
Obata Toshishiro getting his head cut off by Nakamura Taizo


You just CAN'T go wrong toss'n a decapitation. Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have seen this documentary too (Budo - Art of killing) & I liked it. I think the karate scenes where interesting, they showed what can a human do whit his bare hands if his following a right training method.
I started to practice karate 14 years ago and have seen lots of amazing things. I think sometimes we need to do demonstrations to show the people something about martial arts.
On the video "art of killing" You can see a man striking a steam loco, and breaking everything, his is Fujimoto Sadaharu sensei, the president of Kokusai KarateDou Shoubukai. I'm a member of his organisation, and the only thing I can say about him that his a great master.
He says that breaking technics are important in the practice of karate.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I understand that the Okinawans (sorry sp) reason for breaking boards etc was that Samurai armour was made of wooden plates (truth or myth?), but what is karate's reason for breaking boards besides the demonstration of power

I'm sorry to have to admit to occassionaly kidding about preferring a hammer and saw thus using my most powerful tool and weapon

Rick
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hometutor wrote:
I understand that the Okinawans (sorry sp) reason for breaking boards etc was that Samurai armour was made of wooden plates (truth or myth?), but what is karate's reason for breaking boards besides the demonstration of power

I'm sorry to have to admit to occassionaly kidding about preferring a hammer and saw thus using my most powerful tool and weapon

Rick


Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy
No Problem.
There're someone who thinks breaking is important, otherones has an other opinion. But with a saw everyone can tear a block of wood into pieces:D

In Karate, You need to harden your fist, leg, or other sriking points. It's important for the technics, to don't get injure yourself. If You have hard fist, You can break hard things with it. It's just a demonstration of your phisical capabilities, precision, etc. If you're not hit the object in the right place, it won't break just as if you hit someone in the wrong place....
It's just like when a master slices apples, bamboo sticks with sword...He needs good technic to cut those things...an apple won't strike back...

And in Aikido there are demonstrations too. Mostly we get: "why do you practice with sword in aikido? you cannot wear a sword on the streets! it's forbidden. Therefore: is Aikido a self defence?" The only thing we can answer to this that: Aikido is a tipical Koryu-budo, it has the tradition of sword.

In karate, breakin has a tradition...(Not everywhere), just as aikido has its own tradition of sword technics.

And i dont think that Okinawans breaks wood plates cause the samurai armor was made from wood:) (that"s the first time I heard something like that...)

And a funny "saw story":
My musician friend told me, that he went to a performance concert. A guy came out to the piano with a huge toolbox. Stepped to the piano and in a few minutes cut into pieces. The audience cheered....*-)
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Last edited by Macal on Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your knuckles won't do you much good if you break them on someone's face on the first punch. Although breaking boards is more for technique, you have to hit something that doesn't break thousands of times over years to build up the calcium deposits on your knuckles to make them more or less unbreakable. I've had three sensei who had knuckles the size of golf balls. I was to the point where I could go 20 minutes bear knuckle on a canvass heavy bag and not even cut my knuckles. Of course up to getting to that point, I probably left at least a pint or two of blood on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Macal,

Aikidou is not koryuu.


Hometutor,

I use board/brick breaking as a measure of perfecting striking technique and as a small measure of striking surface toughening. If the technique is wrong, the board/brick will not break.
As for toughening, I also use things like bags of lead shot and ye olde punching bag.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Macal,

Aikidou is not koryuu.



Than Gendai:)
But it has the characteristics of a koryu budo, I think... There aren't any competition (exept Tomiki Aikido), and the "philosophy" is "old style" too...

Than it can be said: KoRyu like budo:)

I know that the classical meaning of Koryu budo is "after Edo period" (or something like that..)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:03 am    Post subject: koryu Reply with quote
Macal wrote:
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Macal,

Aikidou is not koryuu.



Than Gendai:)
But it has the characteristics of a koryu budo, I think... There aren't any competition (exept Tomiki Aikido), and the "philosophy" is "old style" too...

Than it can be said: KoRyu like budo:)

I know that the classical meaning of Koryu budo is "after Edo period" (or something like that..)


The "classical meaning" as you put it is the only meaning. Any art created prior to the fall of the Bakamatsu is koryu (any created after are termed "gendai budo"). Aikido while Usheba took his influences from koryu (namely Daito Ryu, Kashima Shinto Ryu, and Goto Ha Yagyu Shigan Ryu)does not mean it is koryu as you seem to be insinuating prior to your last statement. It was created after the fall of the bakamatsu thus it is gendai (philosophy and method have nothing to do with it). And the relation you posted Bu-Do or Martial Way may/can be argued to have a connection to Ko-Ryu or old school (but having done aikido and now doing koryu the feeling is very different thus I dissagree with a relation between budo and koryu) Budo is a rather new term which came to be around the time of the founding of aikido and judo. And while Budo/Bujutsu can be manipulated/interpeted by teachers and authors writing on the topic, the meaning of koryu can never change or be manipulated/interpeted to be anything else that what it is (old school). Meaning not only is it a old school focus of war (ken, iai, ju, bo, excetera...) but a method or way of combat which has hundreds of years of battle experience behind it.

hope this helps
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