Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Swords in Hie Shrine

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Swords in Hie Shrine Reply with quote
The other day I had an errand in downtown Tokyo and took the opportunity to wander around, and at one point found myself in the museum of the Hie (日枝) Shrine. The shrine was made the protecting shrine of Edo Castle when it was built in the mid 15th century, and then the Tokugawa shoguns paid it special attention and dedicated a number of swords to it, as did some others, including Emperor Meiji. The informative caretaker called my attention to one of the several on display, which was a National Treasure, by Norimune (則宗). He said this one is on display only around New Year and around the shrine festival (June 15). I am afraid I cannot give you an informative description. Mottainakatta! The sign said that it had been dedicated 1646.6.6 on the occasion of the first shrine visit of Iemitsu's fourth son (the future Tsunayoshi). The fittings were string-wrapped. It is 2-shaku, 5-sun,9-bu and the kaeri is 9 bu.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guess it's this one :

http://www.sho-shin.com/fuk1.htm
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The name and measurements are the same, so it probably is. There can hardly be two kokuho like that.

By the way, are 返り(kaeri?) and 反り(sori) the same thing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Akaguma
Kibamusha
Kibamusha
Veteran Member



Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 633
Location: Strasbourg, France

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
By the way, are 返り(kaeri?) and 反り(sori) the same thing?

返り kaeri means "return", and 反り sori means "curvature". But 反り can also be pronounced kaeri, in which case it means "change", "turn over"," turn inside out, upside down"... isn't this a Diana Ross's song ?? Wink

There is a verb 反り返る sori-kaeru meaning "warp" ; "bend backward" ; "throw the head (or shoulders) back", "throw out the chest".
_________________
福は内、鬼も内、悪魔は外!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
But are they the same thing for sword nomenclature?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
But are they the same thing for sword nomenclature?


No, Kaeri referes to the curvature (turn-back) of
some types of Boshi, the temperline we find into the
Kissai (point).

Sori is always referred to the curvature of the whole blade, measured from the tip to the munemachi
(the border between blade and tang).
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
No, Kaeri referes to the curvature (turn-back) of
some types of Boshi, the temperline we find into the
Kissai (point).

Sori is always referred to the curvature of the whole blade, measured from the tip to the munemachi
(the border between blade and tang).

So when I said first that the "kaeri" of the sword was 9 bu, did I miscopy it from the sign for "sori"?

I see now what the "kaeri" is in your wiki sword diagram. I suppose "kissai" is a typo for "kissaki"?

It seems that on your left diagram the dark line is the upper edge (mune?) of the sword and the right-most line is not part of the sword, but a diagram line. Is that right? If so, I think I understand sori now. Thank you. But what is a "tang"?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
I see now what the "kaeri" is in your wiki sword diagram. I suppose "kissai" is a typo for "kissaki"?


Yes, damn I've to fix it.

Bethetsu wrote:
It seems that on your left diagram the dark line is the upper edge (mune?) of the sword and the right-most line is not part of the sword, but a diagram line. Is that right? If so, I think I understand sori now. Thank you. But what is a "tang"?


Sori is the distance between the higher part of the
curvature from the ideal line joining the tip with
the Munemachi, the boarder between the back of the
blade and the tang. if this point is placed near the
center of the blade it's called "Torizori", if it is
nearer to the tang rather then to the center it's
called Koshizori, if it's placed neare to the point
then to the center of the blade it's called Sakizori.

Tang is the protruding part of the blade that will
be covered by the handle. See "Nakago" in the
diagram.
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think I get it. I looked up the word in the Kojien Dictionary, but I could not figure out what it was talking about. Thank you for you help. I (obviously) know nothing about swords, but when I run (or walk) into something new I try to learn what I can.

I discovered "tang" is a good English word. It is in Webster's Dictionary. It did not occur to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:

I discovered "tang" is a good English word. It is in Webster's Dictionary. It did not occur to me.


The same was for me when I first stumpled in it... Just Kidding
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had trouble when I first tried to figure out sori using your S-A diagram. I thought the right-most line was the mune and the dark line was the shinogi. especially, since the right-hand figure that shows the parts is not curved at all. Maybe you could make the "nagasa" line (in geometry, the "chord") using shorter lines so it is clearly a dotted line. All the lines look dotted now. Also you could identify the dark line as the "mune."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group