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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Kenjutsu ranks Reply with quote
While researching the Shinsengumi I'm coming across the ranking system for Tennen Rishin ryu, listed as: Kirikami, Mokuroku, Chugokui Mokuroku, and Shinan Menkyo. Are these "standard" for all schools of Kenjutsu, or just for Tennen Rishin ryu? And what do they mean? I know that "menkyo" gives you the right to teach or serve as a teaching assistant, and Shinan Menkyo gives you the right to open your own school, (at least I think so) - what about the rest?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:29 pm    Post subject: ranks Reply with quote
Hi Kitsuno, The kyoju dairi is basically a teaching certificate while a menkyo kaiden is a certificate that all has been learned, very rare and usually given to the successors. A full description will be found here, for one ryu. http://www.nyseibukan.com/Intro/Jujutsu/JJ_rank/jj_rank.htm

John
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So I guess the indirect response indicates that no, not all kenjutsu schools have the same traditional ranking system?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is my take on it. Some just have the level of shoden, chuden and okuden. It seems that some ryu have more levels of achievment that combine the two systems, like that site for sosuishi... John
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Some ryuuha, especially those in America, merely have the juukyuu through ikkyuu for the "non black belts" (despite the proclivity for sword styles to not use the belt system) and shodan through ____dan for the upper ranks. Sometimes titles like renshi, kyoushi, and hanshi are used to differentiate between different classes of sensei.


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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
kitsuno,

Some ryuuha, especially those in America, merely have the juukyuu through ikkyuu for the "non black belts" (despite the proclivity for sword styles to not use the belt system) and shodan through ____dan for the upper ranks. Sometimes titles like renshi, kyoushi, and hanshi are used to differentiate between different classes of sensei.


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I'm interested in the "traditional" ranks for the Wiki, but all I think I'll find is the ranks for tennen rishin ryu.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Of course. Are you looking just for kenjutsu ryuuha ranking or schools that were combined with things like battoujutsu?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kit do you have to start the good threads when I am gone (shakes fist with vengeance).

Okay to explain this the best I can I am going to have to be quite lengthy so I apologize, but maybe I can quell a few other questions. Anyway, first we must understand what we are discussing. Kit, I assume that when you said that you are wanting traditional ryu info for the wiki you meant things that were in place before the Meiji restoration. If so then these systems are called koryu bujutsu. Thes are the ryu which focus on combative effectiveness whereas the modern ryu, or gendai budo, focus on a more spiritual goal to their training. This can be explained best by Draeger and his distinction between the two. In bujutsu the emphasis is on: combat discipline, and morals. In budo it seems to go along the lines of: morals, discipline, and aesthetic form.

Also budo seems to be more for the group instead of the individual. For instance Aikido which tries (as I have seen) to encourage everyone to do aiki so that they might gain may beneficial things from said training. However, bujutsu such as say HNIR is for a person solely. It is a person who is engaged in combat which the teachings of koryu bujutsu focus on. We can view this through the kata of said ryu. Let us take again HNIR and aikido. In HNIR a deshi moves with great care and awareness while doing the kata. Because it is very easy for a piece of wood to crack a person’s skull open. The danger which one is exposed to comes from the sensei who, after decades of intense training, can create the life like air of danger and combative awareness. Yet in aiki stress is placed on free sparring which is suppose to build a person’s skills through personal experience.

Now that a basis of ideas has been describe we can see how the grading works. In budo ie the dan system, grades are seen as a goal to work towards. In bujutsu grades are more of an achievement. Now granted these are the principles that are set forth, but this takes place within a person and how they wish to pursue their chosen art. I am not saying that budo is bad. It merely focuses on different aspects of training.

Kit, as to your question. When speaking of the menkyo system, what you asked about, it realy depends on the ryu itself. But the basic form of the system is:

Shoden
Chuden
Okuden/Mokuroku
Menkyo
Menkyo Kaiden

There are, as I said, many vanities of this depending on the ryu for instance HNIR is as follows:

Nyumon,
Mokuroku
Menkyo
Menkyo Kaiden

I hopes this might help jn the slightest way. AGain this is something I could have spent alot more time on and made my pionts cleare however I have not. If I need to I will go back and explian, or atleast try to, things that are not clear. But hey thats what I get for doing a quick hack job of soemthing that should take a good bit of time to do.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

He is not looking so much for the current standing ranking system of a koryuu as much as for what the ranking system was for any given style that existed prior to the Meiji jidai.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt,

The menkyo system is what has and still is been used. The only thing that comes to mind right now is that Sasaki Kojiro is thought to have recieved menkyo kaiden from Chujo ryu. But anyway, it is what he was wanting.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

I understand that the menkyo and menkyo kaiden are the common recurring themes, it is the all the other stuff before that that is in question (i.e. mokuroku, okuden, et cetera). These are the things that are most likely to have changed in the century plus that has passed since the fall of the bakufu.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt,

The things you say are in question are merely terms that refer to a license/rank/level given to an exponet of a ryu. As I mentioned above there are several words used to describe the same thing.

If these things have changed or not can not nessiccarliy be understood. It is placed on the ones who have recieved and passed on the teachings of the tyu. A ryu is an entity unto itself. It changes and adapts as time goes on. I am sure that what is today is different from what say Yagyu left behind. But this is because it has been altered to the beliefs and ideas of the successors of the ryu, and therefor is not just what the founder passed but what each soke has passed on.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin,

Of course what exists today is different from that of centuries passed, that is not the issue, nor is the adaptability of ryuuha. What is the issue is what where the exact grade/rank levels of ____ryuu before the bakumatsu. in all their differently-worded glory.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah, well guess I can chalk up another one to misunderstanding the question Embarassed
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Of course what exists today is different from that of centuries passed, that is not the issue, nor is the adaptability of ryuuha. What is the issue is what where the exact grade/rank levels of ____ryuu before the bakumatsu. in all their differently-worded glory.


That was pretty much the question, so I guess that the ranks of "Kirikami, Mokuroku, Chugokui Mokuroku, and Shinan Menkyo." are more or less exclusive to Tennen Rishin ryu? I think it would be great if we could add the pre-meiji ranking systems to the articles, and write a general article on ranks. I already have an entry for "Menkyo", although it is short.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:54 pm    Post subject: Licenses Reply with quote
Licences depend on the tradition. Two traditions which have not changed thier licenses are Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Shindo Munen Ryu.

Owari Yagy Shinkage Ryu licenses are listed as such:
Omote
Omarobashi
Komarobashi
Tengu-sho
Tengu-sho oku
mokuroku
inka

Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu licenses are listed as:
kirigami
mokuroku
jun-menkyo
menkyo
menkyo kaiden (this license belongs to the soke of SMRK)

Tenshin Rishin Ryu I believe uses dan ranking and traditional licenses like Tatsumi Ryu and Goto ha Yagyu Shigan Ryu Taijutsu does.

One tradition I know for certain changed its license system is Shinmuto ryu-Muso Shinden Ryu. When Nakayama Hakudo began to teach the art in his dojo (Yushinkan) he changed the licenses to be issued with the Shindo Munen Ryu rankings. Densho of
Shinnamura Ha was issued as:
Shoden
Chuden
Okuden/ Mokuroku
Menkyo
Menkyo Kaiden/To no Maki
Which is suprising consitering the amount of Densho and large amount of topics covered in the desho. Five Ryuha include Omori ryu, Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, Shigenobu Ryu, Natsurabara Ryu, Itarabashi ryu, covering the techniques, philosophy, and hyoho for each style. There is also a school of hyoho with in the densho called Shinden Ryu, not to mention seperate densho to discribe all the iai kumitachi from Tachi Uchi no Kurai to Daikendori.
Sadly many practitioners of MJERI and MSRI have no idea these documents contain and while they are teaching students all this is lost to them. As the iai kumitachi are lost to many MSRI and MJER practitioners.

hope this helps
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As has already been established on this thread, you can't really generalize with licences and ranks in koryu.

Each ryuha has/had it's own individual system and theory not to mention policy on who was given permission to teach or represent the school. In some schools, once you are awarded mokuroku, you have automatic authority to open a dojo. On the other hand, authority is given by the Soke/Shihanke to the licence holder. There are some budoka out there with full licences of proficiency who haven't been given authorization to teach in Japan.

The licence structure for Hokushin Itto-ryu (Ozawa line in Ibaraki) is rather a simple three tiered system.

Sho-Mokuroku (初目録 )
Chu-Mokuroku Menkyo (中目録免許 )
Dai-Mokuroku Kaiden (大目録皆伝 )

Whereas, a system with a larger, more comprehensive syllabus like the Soke & Sodenke lines of Takenouchi-ryu have;

Omote-geiko (表稽古 )
Ura-geiko (裏稽古 )
Tassha (達者 )
Mokuroku (目録 )
Jirou (次臘 )
Menkyo (免許 )
Inka (印可 )

With koryu, everything is very much case-by-case. You can't afford to make any oversights or overgeneralizations, since you'll miss something.
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