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SlickSlicer
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:46 pm    Post subject: Maeda Keiji? Reply with quote
Did he even exist? I see him in a lot of games and stuff, but when I read 'Maeda' in books, it's usually followed by either 'Gen'i,' who was one of Hideyoshi's 5 Administrators or 'Toshiie,' who was a general under Oda Nobunaga and then Toyotomi Hideyoshi.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did you check Google?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Answer 1: What Ashigaru said.

Answer 2: Yes, he was real. He was a relatively minor member of the same Maeda family as Toshiie--he was a cousin or something. The only thing he was particularly noted for was his somewhat outlandish (and girly/youthful) dressing style. Maeda Gen-i, incidentally, is unrelated.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Maeda Keiji? Reply with quote
SlickSlicer wrote:
Did he even exist? I see him in a lot of games and stuff, but when I read 'Maeda' in books, it's usually followed by either 'Gen'i,' who was one of Hideyoshi's 5 Administrators or 'Toshiie,' who was a general under Oda Nobunaga and then Toyotomi Hideyoshi.


In Japanese TV series called "Toshiie and Matsu", there is a Keijiro who is portrayed as Toshiie's older brother (Toshihisa) wife's (Tsune) son by a previous marriage.

Go to this link and see episode 5 text. There is a reference to a child who is Keijiro. Also see episode 37 text.

http://users.adelphia.net/~gojira/toshiie.htm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't understand why the SW games try to make him out as such a powerful warrior when most of what we know of this historical figure could be nothing more than hearsay.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Susano-o wrote:
I don't understand why the SW games try to make him out as such a powerful warrior when most of what we know of this historical figure could be nothing more than hearsay.


You're talking about Omega Force (the warriors serie developpers), the company who transformed Nene into a kunoichi. Are you really that surprised? I doubt it
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baian wrote:
Susano-o wrote:
I don't understand why the SW games try to make him out as such a powerful warrior when most of what we know of this historical figure could be nothing more than hearsay.


You're talking about Omega Force (the warriors serie developpers), the company who transformed Nene into a kunoichi. Are you really that surprised? I doubt it


Good point. But hey, at least they didn't do that Devil Kings crap that Capcom put out. That's just a travesty. I bet the day this game was conceived, all the Sengoku-jidai historical figures that these uh..."characters" are based on rolled over in their graves.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Especially Tokugawa Ieyasu and Takeda Shingen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF1xhs1sHlg

My comments on it are at the top.

I apologize ahead of time for how terrible it is.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ha I especially liked the fellow who used two spears to pole vault himself and his horse. Cartoons Rolling Eyes John
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is apparently Sanada Yukimura

People didn't like my comments, they gave them thumbs down. Rolling Eyes

As soon as I saw Takeda Shingen pull out that axe, I knew the video would pain me to watch. It just became progressively worse as I watched it. First, Oda Nobunaga wearing some strange plate mail armor; Tokugawa Ieyasu looks eleven; Sanada Yukimura started doing acrobatics with his horse.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kasemacher wrote:
That is apparently Sanada Yukimura

People didn't like my comments, they gave them thumbs down. Rolling Eyes

As soon as I saw Takeda Shingen pull out that axe, I knew the video would pain me to watch. It just became progressively worse as I watched it. First, Oda Nobunaga wearing some strange plate mail armor; Tokugawa Ieyasu looks eleven; Sanada Yukimura started doing acrobatics with his horse.


It gets even better. Francis Xavier is a huge, ignorant dolt with two particle cannons who 'converts the unbelievers' (although it's the single most hilarious send up I've seen in a video game), Ieyasu's muscle is Honda Tadakatsu in a Gundam suit (looks like one of the mechs from Samurai Seven), Shimazu Yoshihiro is a sake swilling drunk, Maeda Matsu changes from housefrau to superheroine in a typical 'Sailor Moon' anime type transformation sequence (and routinely beats the crap out of Maeda Keiji and Maeda Toshiie, who it should be noted sometimes uses a swordfish as his weapon), Akechi Mitsuhide is the Grim Reaper and also prone to being restrained ala Hannibal Lecter, the Chosokabe are eyepatch wearing pirates with mechanical tanks and WWI 'Big Bertha' cannons, and most bizarre of all, Uesugi Kenshin is a ladies man and womanizer (who has a blonde haired western woman as his ninjer). This is just the tip of the iceberg.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think Japanese can screw up Japanese historical figures worse than American media ever could. Although I don't want the western media to try and prove me wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Shimazu Yoshihiro is a sake swilling drunk,


So they mixed him up with Uesugi Kenshin, then?

Quote:
Maeda Matsu changes from housefrau to superheroine in a typical 'Sailor Moon' anime type transformation sequence


OH, they mixed MATSU up with Kenshin...nevermind.

Quote:
and most bizarre of all, Uesugi Kenshin is a ladies man and womanizer (who has a blonde haired western woman as his ninjer).


...um....wow. Speechless.

Kasemacher wrote:
I think Japanese can screw up Japanese historical figures worse than American media ever could. Although I don't want the western media to try and prove me wrong.


The difference is, they *KNOW* it's BS. Most Americans, upon seeing a game with George Washington carrying a particle cannon and Thomas Jefferson pole vaulting on a horse, would know it's full of crap. Americans don't know Japanese history, so believe this idiocy more than they should. The Japanese know it's complete fantasy, and no one is going around thinking Maeda Keiji was really some super badass.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
...and most bizarre of all, Uesugi Kenshin is a ladies man and womanizer (who has a blonde haired western woman as his ninjer).


ltdomer98 wrote:
...um....wow. Speechless.


I thought you'd like that!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
so true
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, that's the media for you. If Hollywood can screw up samurai, you betcha videogames can do it as well.

I still liked playing Samurai Warriors 2 though, even though nearly everything about the game is historically inaccurate.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Back on topic...

There is virtually no reliable information I can find on him out there, although I have tried. Web sites such as Wikipedia have entires on him but no sources at all are cited. Being unable to read Japanese, I can only rely on English information.

As has been said, he was adopted into the Maeda clan and was Toshiie's nephew. He left the Maeda clan and became a ronin. He was noted for his outlandish style and was something of a kabukimono. He fought with the Uesugi against the Tokugawa in the twilight of the Sengoku period.

Something interesting is the fact that he was also a poet -- of what quality, I can't say. It's one of those things that, like Musashi also being a gifted artist, is often overlooked when samurai are discussed.

A warrior also being artsy? How novel! Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well don't forget that Miyamoto Musashi was a murdering bastard but one hell of a skilled painter and wood carving artist.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote
Quote:
There is virtually no reliable information I can find on him out there, although I have tried. Web sites such as Wikipedia have entires on him but no sources at all are cited. Being unable to read Japanese, I can only rely on English information.


That piece of crap wiki article on Maeda is a hoot.

Btw, Saru, welcome to the Citadel!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

Answer 2: Yes, he was real. He was a relatively minor member of the same Maeda family as Toshiie--he was a cousin or something.


I thought Keiji was Toshiie's nephew?

Kasemacher wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF1xhs1sHlg


That was the absolute worst video I've ever seen...lmao

Tatsunoshi wrote:
...and most bizarre of all, Uesugi Kenshin is a ladies man and womanizer (who has a blonde haired western woman as his ninjer).


I guess whoever wrote that doesn't know that Kenshin was a devout Buddhist and probably never so much as looked at a woman.. Ok, maybe he looked but that's about it. And what's a ninjer? Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
People here bashing video games loosely based on the Sengoku Period is akin to people bashing Disney's Pocahontas for not being historically accurate. You might as well claim Lion King is bad because animals can't really sing and dance.

Video game series like Sengoku Basara (Devil Kings), Samurai Warriors and Way of the Samurai don't claim to be 100% historically accurate or even 10%; they do, however, aspire to be entertaining. And if you read the reviews of some of these games, they succeed.

No one unless the very young and the very foolish find them to be truth... No more than they believe Chronicles of Narnia was a documentary taking place in real time. You may complain that these media influence children to believe something that is not true. Well, such children are lazy and need to learn the importance of research. These same games also inspire people -- such as myself -- to read history books and scholarly articles and not -- believe it or not -- rely on video games and cartoons for reliable historical info. I got into the Three Kingdoms period thanks to Koei's Dynasty Warriors series and later the Sengoku Period thanks to games like Nobunaga's Ambition and Samurai Warriors. So actually these forms of media can create interest in subjects people probably otherwise wouldn't care much about.

Sorry for the rant, but all the hate directed at anything that misrepresents fact is a pet peeve of mine among armchair historians. Unless the giver of information is claiming to be totally accurate, there's no need to roll eyes. You might as well send Anthony Bryant hate PMs because he included demons, fantasy creatures and magic in the Sengoku RPG... even though it's a role-playing game and most RPGs have them.

Quote:
I guess whoever wrote that doesn't know that Kenshin was a devout Buddhist and probably never so much as looked at a woman.. Ok, maybe he looked but that's about it. And what's a ninjer? Just Kidding


Kenshin I think did more meditating with sake than he did with the Lotus Sutra. While he didn't produce any male heirs of record, it wouldn't surprise me if he broke the rules of celibacy too.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I can't find much accurate information on Keiji either. That's why I wasn't sure if he existed or not. That, and the fact that I always assumed that he was some misinterpretation of Toshiie or something, who actually was, you know, significant. >_>

So then, Keiji was just a minor member of the Maeda family. Thanks for the information.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
People here bashing video games loosely based on the Sengoku Period is akin to people bashing Disney's Pocahontas for not being historically accurate. You might as well claim Lion King is bad because animals can't really sing and dance.


Stick around a few more months and you'll see that we *constantly* get people who--to borrow your analogy--try to use Disney's "Pocahontas" as a source in a grown-up discussion of early settler-Indian relations. That tends to wear on people here.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got into a debate recently over this personage and the person cited these documents and or books as references: the "Jozan Kidan" and the "Uesugi Shoshi Kakiage". I was given a link: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1475005 , but I noticed that the "Uesugi Shoshi Kakiage" is not even among the documents listed, and that his "Jozan Kidan" was written nearly 100 years after the supposed death of Keiji or Toshimasu or whoever the heck he is. I doubt it But my question is, has anyone came across these books/documents and know whether they have any credibility?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Maeda Keiji? Reply with quote
SlickSlicer wrote:
Did he even exist? I see him in a lot of games and stuff, but when I read 'Maeda' in books, it's usually followed by either 'Gen'i,' who was one of Hideyoshi's 5 Administrators or 'Toshiie,' who was a general under Oda Nobunaga and then Toyotomi Hideyoshi.


I don't know much about Keiji.
This is from J-wikipedia
Real name is Maeda Toshimasu.
He was Maeda Toshihisa's adopted son,Toshiie's nephew.

This is from Yamagata prefecture's tourism site.
He became a friend of Naoe Kanetsugu then he was hired for the Uesugi clan with 1000koku salary。

There are not much primary sources.
Most famous one is his diary "Maeda Keiji Dochu Nikki" (前田慶次道中日記)
that Yonezawa city liberary keeps.

Some original text can be read here.
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