Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Tanto/Kenjitsu San Fran/Bay Area???

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Martial Arts
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dr.Mavashi
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:59 pm    Post subject: Tanto/Kenjitsu San Fran/Bay Area??? Reply with quote
I allready know of these two places:
http://www.yachigusaryu.com/about_gary_moro.html
http://www.suigetsukan.org/

Anybody else? I am intersted in Dojo's that train real combatives, with some elements of hard sparring(the more the better) so the skills are not recreational but reality-applicational.
Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rikoseishin
Shushou
Shushou
Veteran Member



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 861
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dr.Mavashi,

There is no such thing as a dojo which trains real combatives in sword. First off, the sword is an archaic weapon. Do you wish to die by brining a sword to a gun fight? There is no way you would have use for real tactical skills involving any edge weapon in modern combat, leave say a knife for cutting material or something. And so, all training in koryu kenjutsu/iaijutsu is recreational.

What is your definition of hard sparring? A hard type of sparring in any type of kenjutsu is dangerous, even with years of experience. Getting hit in the head with a piece of wood can kill. I am afraid what you are looking for is not kenjutsu or iaijutsu.
_________________
"The end of our Way of the sword is to be fearless when confronting our inner enemies and our outer enemies."
-Yamaoka Tesshu

Jonah Matheson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr.Mavashi
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am very well aware of the sword being an archaic weapon, thank you. By combatives I mean as far away from Kendo mentality an atmosphere as possible. In Yachigusa Dojo above, they do ocasionally "spar" and they dont tap shinai Kendo-style, they hit as hard as possible, the first and only time I sparred I almost got knocked out with downward strike, all though I was wearing bogu, and I am no stranger to getting hit in the head full contact, this was a revelation and I loved it. There are tactical situations in modern combat for a knife, although they are very limited. I look at knife as my self defense weapon of choice, so I do carry it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rikoseishin
Shushou
Shushou
Veteran Member



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 861
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dr.Mavashi,

Explaining that you seek the lack of a modern sportive atmosphere would have been less of a dubious. However, as I mentioned before, sparring is not a large part of most ryu. Although there are some ryu that have their own shinai geiko, many such as Nakanishi ha Itto ryu and Kurama ryu have joined ZNKR. And still other ryu just do modern kendo without joining.

You said you wish to escape the kendo mentality, but in reality by wanting to do a lot of sparring you are asking for a kendo atmosphere. The idea that one develops quicker and better from sparring is very much the idea which is at the root of kendo. However, in most koryu kenjutsu emphasis is placed on kata. This is the old mentality to train the body in a specific way and allow it to take over in a situation of combat.
_________________
"The end of our Way of the sword is to be fearless when confronting our inner enemies and our outer enemies."
-Yamaoka Tesshu

Jonah Matheson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr.Mavashi
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
First of all what I mean by Kendo environment, is lack of entire body as a target, and quick light taps over commited hard strikes that "commitment to the cut" requires. Now, as far as why sparring was not encouraged in those days, I can think of few reasons why this was, but I think few of these reasons had a well founded arguement as sparring not being a good tool for training. IMHO, no hard sparring means kiss of death, its the same reason why so many people with traditional MA practise get mugged and knocked out by teenage street thugs, so much for the spirit of budo and authentic technique. Unless I am mistaken, shinsengumi embraced sparring.
Now that we talk about a SWORD I think too much sparring is bad, but I absolutely think that hard sparring sessions are necessary. As far practicing Kata with a partner at full speed, full power, with boken and not having any protective gear on, come on who can honestly say they do that? you will be pulling back no matter what. But this thread has really gotten of topic, can anybody recomend any places in Bay Area??? Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lord Ruin
Artisan
Artisan
Veteran Member



Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 120
Location: PA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Tanto/Kenjitsu San Fran/Bay Area??? Reply with quote
Dr.Mavashi wrote:
I allready know of these two places:
http://www.yachigusaryu.com/about_gary_moro.html
http://www.suigetsukan.org/

Anybody else? I am intersted in Dojo's that train real combatives, with some elements of hard sparring(the more the better) so the skills are not recreational but reality-applicational.
Thank you.


Anyone from the forms please correct me if I'am wrong. But... "real combatives"? I dont think any school trains you for real combat with a Katana anymore. Except for maybe 3 or 4 schools in Japan.. Which I'm sure its extremely difficult to be accepted to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/

Here's something for you to look into. Guy Powers Sensei teaches Nakamura Ryu Battodo (I don't know if there is anything else in the curriculum at the Kenshinkan).

Go ahead and check it out. Not sure if it is what you are looking for, though.


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka
Iaidouka
Veteran Member



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 1865
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley,

Nakamura Ryuu, much like its cousin Toyama Ryuu, are nowhere near combative. They focus heavily on tameshigiri and slightly on some kata from the standing position.


平和、

マット
_________________
鋼鉄の海軍
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would agree and disagree. However, my main point was that I thought is was something the good gentleman *should* look into. I think the 'combatives' is going to be a stretch anywhere.

I agree that many people doing Toyama Ryu focus mainly on tameshigiri. For Nakamura Ryu, our group under Dave Drawdy, and the folks I've seen from Powers-sensei's group focus primarily on the kata. Tameshigiri is just a method of making sure our cuts for the kata are correct, but tameshigiri is not the focus, though I know we do it more than some other groups.

Any good group that you find, though, will pass down how to use the sword. Mugai Ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Muso Shinden Ryu, if taught well, will all teach you how to use the sword (I don't want to get into a 'this Ryu is better than that'--Powers-sensei is the only one I know in that area, so that's why I posted it).

If you want 'combatives' I don't know what to say. In my experience, if you spar before you train, without good guidance on what you are doing, your sparring will influence what you do elsewhere, often meaning you cheat your cuts or pull your blows. I've yet to see it done really well.


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bushikan
Village Councilman
Village Councilman
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Feb 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Tokyo

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Late response Reply with quote
Dr.Mavashi wrote:
First of all what I mean by Kendo environment, is lack of entire body as a target, and quick light taps over commited hard strikes that "commitment to the cut" requires. Now, as far as why sparring was not encouraged in those days, I can think of few reasons why this was, but I think few of these reasons had a well founded arguement as sparring not being a good tool for training. IMHO, no hard sparring means kiss of death, its the same reason why so many people with traditional MA practise get mugged and knocked out by teenage street thugs, so much for the spirit of budo and authentic technique. Unless I am mistaken, shinsengumi embraced sparring.
Now that we talk about a SWORD I think too much sparring is bad, but I absolutely think that hard sparring sessions are necessary. As far practicing Kata with a partner at full speed, full power, with boken and not having any protective gear on, come on who can honestly say they do that? you will be pulling back no matter what. :lol:


Im a little late to this topic, however Dr. Mavashi your slightly missing the point. I can understand your argument being the entire body in kendo is not avalable for striking. And the way in which the sword is used; is vastly different. Kendo is a modified version of sword combat which was though up by members of Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage Ryu, as an alternative way of sparring: in which competiters would not be maimed, crippled, or killed as a result of a match. And while the earlier style of kendo were much more consistant to "real" swordsmenship, the newer version holds that same spirit. In the Yushinkan we practice "Shinken Shobu": a version of Kendo passed along with Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu. Swings are done with full power, there is checking, and other fun rule breakers (in terms of modern kendo). It is very agressive and violent (it hurts alot).

Now on the other hand we practice many modified (modern kendo) drills made by Neigishi Shingoro and Nakayama Hakudo. Which are much more conducive to modern kendo. Nakayama Zendo, Hashimoto Toyo, Nakakura Kiyoshi, Danzaki Tomohiza, and Haga Junichi all learned Shinken Shobu and the modified waza along with the normal curiculim at the Yushinkan (the result of which lead them to become some of the best swordsmen in the Showa period). But it should be understood what kendo really represents. While the flicking strike in Kendo is rather fast and innacurate in terms of using a sword, it requires the same focus as "real" swordsmanship. Made harder by the reduction of movement (due to the use of a shinai, in which the intention is not to hurt your opponent. Yet powerful enough to let them know they have been killed/hit). Its is therefor extreamly demanding in terms of competition (shiai). If a person has a understanding of the mentality and experience which comes from practicing kendo, and then has a firm understanding of sword (mentality and heiho) which developed from years of training in Koryu or Gendai (whatever floats your boat) sword arts. Then the swordsmen is inpreterbable (however this is to say that one should practice all arts to grasp the understaning) nessisary:ken/iai/kendo). People who practice only one or two aspect(s) lack all the other ones, and therefor are further from the truth (therefor ignorant). Nakayama Hakudo invented (along with a few others) Toyama Ryu (Gunto-jutsu) and reformed the Nihon Kendo Kata (for the ZNKR), because those individuals who practiced only kendo had much difficulty when using a sword against something living (which is why Toyama Ryu uses such huge cuts).

Now it should be noted that several groups and styles allow/enforced use of sparring. It should also be noted that these reports have been exagerated by modern film and manga. The Shinsengumi did enforce sparing among thier members, but most of the events took place wearing Bogu. Matches without bogu were only fought on special occasions, and the result of such a match would most likely be unfavorable (meaning a dead/crippled opponent). Nagakura Shinpachi (2end squad leader)was a Menkyo in Shindo Munen Ryu, and often competed and taught kendo. His last sword instruction was a kendo class (not kenjutsu) where he collapsed, due to age. Also Tennen Rishin Ryu has alway enfore sparring through kendo. And in my opionion the style (TRRK) is extreamly conducive to kendo. In the 18th century may people became increasingly bored with just waza, however many styles reconised the importantce of kendo (such as: Hokushin Itto Ryu, Shindo Munen Ryu, Kyoshin Meichi Ryu, Kogen Itto Ryu, Mugai Ryu, Tatsumi Ryu....ect ). Other systems such a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Jikishinkage Ryu, Bokuden Ryu and Manwa Nen Ryu already had furuku-shinai (and used them accordingly).

You are insinuating however that a person who deos not practice shiai is incapable. This is not true. It should not be said that say some like Otake Risuke and sons (having practiced waza only for and entire lifetime)are incapable, simply because thier ryu-ha does spar (as per promise toward the Katori Deity and Marishiten) . They are by far the best swordsmen in Japan, and should be greatly respected. Or even Kuroda Tetsuzuran who practiced swordsmenship since he could walk, and is by far one of the (if not the) scarrriest man with a sword alive.

Lastly I agree with you if your going to strike, strike hard, strike fast, strike first (Mas Oyama).
Therefor if your going to strike, strike like a mac truck. Reducing the chance your opponent cna counter attack (being that a person is perhaps weakest in the midst of a strike). This way you either cut your opponent, force him to change positions (kamae, mindset, agressiveness, or heiho). Therefor moving to the next stage which leads you closer to the conclusion (your death or his/her).

hope this helps
_________________
Jeff Karinja
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Toryu
Vagrant
Vagrant
Veteran Member



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 5
Location: at San Francisco in California

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Bay Area Sword Instruction - way late reply Reply with quote
Dr Mavashi et al -
I read with great interest all the posts and can hardly add anything but for those who may be interested I recommend Andrej Diamanstein as perhaps pne of the best if not the best practitioners and instructors in authentic Iaido here in the U.S.
Please visit www.iaido.org
and please visit us in the San Francisco or Berkeley dojo. We may not whack you with a stick but I am sure you'll be struck by the quality of swordsmanship. All are welcome,
-t
_________________
"The sword is the soul, an evil mind, an evil sword"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Martial Arts All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group