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ashley
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Nobunaga oda Reply with quote
he was the best person for japan why did mitsuheda have to betray him Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Nobunaga oda Reply with quote
ashley wrote:
he was the best person for japan why did mitsuheda have to betray him Cool


Mitsuhide did it for reasons unknown. Nobunaga wasn't exactly the nicest guy around.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:22 am    Post subject: Re: Nobunaga oda Reply with quote
ashley wrote:
he was the best person for japan why did mitsuheda have to betray him Cool


I agree.
I've always been a big Nobunaga fan.
It takes a big man to do what he did, or atleast tried to do.
It's always bothered me that after all that hard work, he was unable to taste the fruits of a unified Japan.
The story of "The Three Rice Farmers" comes to mind.
I would place him among all the great fallen leaders, that began a movement and were tragically cut down by fear and the status quo.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
More literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akechi_Mitsuhide

Best regards
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Nobunaga oda Reply with quote
ashley wrote:
he was the best person for japan


Have you actually read any biographical materials on him?'

Frankly, I'm surprised no one tried BEFORE Mitsuhide took him out.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oda Nobunaga was a headstrong, self-willed lot who don't know patience.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sometimes a great leader does not translate into a great human being.
This was a country at war.
I believe the fact that he was so inpatient, and headstrong, was the reason he was able to accomplish the things he did.
Unfortunately, it's probably the very same reason he was murdered.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Naomichi wrote:
More literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akechi_Mitsuhide

Best regards


Wikipedia sometimes = garbage. Caveat Emptor.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't really love Mitsuhide, but I can understand his motives for going for Nobunaga. His timing was honestly perfect and his move to overthrow Nobunaga was brilliantly executed. Beyond that, I think I've read that their relationship was less than stellar, and that Nobunaga had, on multiple occasions, derided Mitsuhide.

(Incidentally, this thread gave me the perfect idea for an avatar quote I can stick in my signature.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SlickSlicer wrote:
I don't really love Mitsuhide, but I can understand his motives for going for Nobunaga. His timing was honestly perfect and his move to overthrow Nobunaga was brilliantly executed.



Brilliant timing and perfect execution rarely ends with you getting speared to death by peasants while fleeing for your life.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Brilliant timing and perfect execution rarely ends with you getting speared to death by peasants while fleeing for your life.


Very well put, there Kitsuno, old boy!
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
SlickSlicer wrote:
I don't really love Mitsuhide, but I can understand his motives for going for Nobunaga. His timing was honestly perfect and his move to overthrow Nobunaga was brilliantly executed.



Brilliant timing and perfect execution rarely ends with you getting speared to death by peasants while fleeing for your life.


He made mistakes afterwards, or at least failed to curry enough support, for his takeover to have lasted. However, as far as overthrowing Nobunaga went, he succeeded. Had he tried to rebel against Nobunaga at any other time, I doubt he could have killed him so quickly or won so quickly in his endeavors.

That's all I meant. I'm not really arguing that in hindsight his rebellion was a good idea; merely, he picked a good time to take on his master. If he had tried to supplant Nobunaga immediately after the latter did things that resulted in the death of Mitsuhide's mother, as an example, he would have had a lot more difficulty succeeding in the task. If he had opted to revolt long after Honnoji, he probably wouldn't have had a good opportunity to succeed in killing Nobunaga and/or Nobunaga's supporters would have crushed the upstart Mitsuhide perhaps even quicker.

I suppose the ultimate mistake he, or at least his troops made, was letting somebody escape to bear the news to Hideyoshi. Beyond that, I'm sure he made plenty of other erroneous decisions as well. However, when it came to destroying Nobunaga himself, he succeeded.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SlickSlicer wrote:
If he had tried to supplant Nobunaga immediately after the latter did things that resulted in the death of Mitsuhide's mother,


There's really no historical evidence that Oda was responsible for the death of Mitsuhide's mother (in retaliation for his killing two brothers that Mitsuhide had talked into surrendering, leaving his own mother with their family as a hostage). This account, like so many other colorful stories, seems to have been invented during the Edo period by a novelist/performer to give his rebellion a strong motive.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmmm...I wasn't sure about that. Well, if you can forgive that error on my part, I still think that Mitsuhide would have had trouble toppling Nobunaga at most other times in his career. While Nobunaga was at Honnoji with such a small # of retainers, it was the perfect time to strike.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SlickSlicer wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
SlickSlicer wrote:
I don't really love Mitsuhide, but I can understand his motives for going for Nobunaga. His timing was honestly perfect and his move to overthrow Nobunaga was brilliantly executed.



Brilliant timing and perfect execution rarely ends with you getting speared to death by peasants while fleeing for your life.


He made mistakes afterwards, or at least failed to curry enough support, for his takeover to have lasted. However, as far as overthrowing Nobunaga went, he succeeded. Had he tried to rebel against Nobunaga at any other time, I doubt he could have killed him so quickly or won so quickly in his endeavors.

That's all I meant. I'm not really arguing that in hindsight his rebellion was a good idea; merely, he picked a good time to take on his master. If he had tried to supplant Nobunaga immediately after the latter did things that resulted in the death of Mitsuhide's mother, as an example, he would have had a lot more difficulty succeeding in the task. If he had opted to revolt long after Honnoji, he probably wouldn't have had a good opportunity to succeed in killing Nobunaga and/or Nobunaga's supporters would have crushed the upstart Mitsuhide perhaps even quicker.

I suppose the ultimate mistake he, or at least his troops made, was letting somebody escape to bear the news to Hideyoshi. Beyond that, I'm sure he made plenty of other erroneous decisions as well. However, when it came to destroying Nobunaga himself, he succeeded.



You are missing the point - ANY time is a good time depending on how much risk you are willing to take. On any given day someone could have stabbed Nobunaga to death where he stood - would that have meant "good timing" or a "good plan"? Certainly not! It probably would have gotten them killed on the spot, or end up like Mitsuhide, fleeing for thier life. Good timing and plans mean you actually survive. I doubt Mitsuhide put any real thought into what he was going to do beyond the first week or so, I seriously doubt he thought long term. He probably thought that since everyone thought Nobunaga was a monster anyway, and since he was the one to have killed him, if he could get a few allies together he'd have good standing after the initial chaos. If he were on trial today for murder, he could easily argue his way out of first degree (pre-meditated) murder. The attack on Honnoji itself was well planned, but if you don't have an exit strategy, it is just plain overall bad.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Slick,

Kitsuno's got a very valid point. Mitsuhide was a clever man and a good strategist, unlike your boy, Mitsunari. But, like Mitsunari, Mitsuhide had the tendency to alienate certain key people as he looked down on many powerful, younger upstarts with humble origins, such as Hashiba Hideyoshi

The attack on Honnoji was masterful. No doubt about it, but as Kitsuno stated, there appears to be no real plan for afterwards. This was UN-characteristic of Mitsuhide. Yeah, he could have definitely avoided a premeditated murder charge by pleading insanity, and based by the fact that he didn't have a clear post-Honnoji, you may be able to speculate that he was out of his mind at the time and he snapped. Who knows?

Anyway, I hope you haven't found a new donut to munch on.. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's a good point. I suppose Mitsuhide should have made certain that the Hosokawa and the other clans he was relying on, supported him. I've never been a Mitsuhide fan to be honest, so no Akechi donuts for me...

I won't argue this one further. I agree with the exit strategy point anyways.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well Nobunaga wasn't actually known for being nice (but he always liked Mori Ranmaru, Hideyoshi and Maeda Toshiie).
Mitsuhide was angry because Nobunaga preferred Hideyoshi and like said before Mitsuhide looked down on Hideyoshi and he didn't get along with Ranmaru.
There is the story about Mitsuhide's mother but I don't know if you can count that as real. There is also a folklore tale about Mitsuhide being influenced by Tengu.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, there was a time when both Hideyoshi and Toshiie were in fear for their lives because of Nobunaga's anger. Both managed to placate him, but nevertheless, they almost became statistics -- just like Nobunaga's two brothers-in-law.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Nobunaga oda Reply with quote
ashley wrote:
he was the best person for japan why did mitsuheda have to betray him Cool


Both Nobunaga and Mitsuhide were products of their environments, and given that context, their actions are totally reasonable and understandable.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You did whatever it took to survive. One false move and you were dead. Mitsuhide had the chance to take the Tenka and he made the most of it. Kitsuno summed up best. Being killed by a low peasant is not the way to go out. As for Mitsuhide's mommy theory. I have read many accounts, but as mentioned earlier Edo fiction. One key point that was mentioned, he should have had some support after the party. Not getting any help from the Hosokawa should have rang a bell in Mitsuhide's head this revolt thing might not work out in the long run. In the end, It was Hideyoshi who clean up the party. It had to be sweet for the monkey. Killed two birds with one stone. Revenge and taking out a man who treated the monkey as a subordinate.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I never really cared for Mitsuhide myself. However, could it be argued that Nobunaga's death was a good thing for Japan?

I know that's a BIG what if? scenario.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe. In fact, that could be a forum question. I do know this, according to the novelist Tsumoto Yo, if he did not perish in 1582,the world would have been different. That goes for Japan too. I do admire his work. His best work I think is Geten wa Yume ka. I really enjoyed reading it. I read it on the way home from Japan last year. I know he has something on Shingen as well.

Here is story I love. If you mess up, you pay the price. Before the Battle of Anegawa in 1570, Nobunaga was heading back to Gifu when a sniper by the name of Sugitani Zenju no Bo fired two shots from his gun to kill Nobunaga. The problem, only hits his sleeve. The sniper was known to be a marksman and was hired by the Rokkaku.

Three years later, he was captured. Here comes the good part. He was buried with head exposed. Then his head was cut off by a saw. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wasn't the sharpshooter's name Sugitani Zenjubo? I've read of that account, but I never knew of the way Zenjubo was tortured.

Is it true that Ishikawa Goemon attempted to assassinate Nobunaga as well?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The spelling of the name I found in Neil McMullin's Buddhism and the State in Sixteenth Century Japan. A hard book to find. I was able to copy it at SDSU. If you look in Ota Gyuuichi's Shincho-ko ki Book 6 Chapter 16 has all the gory details. Nobunaga took care of business.

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