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Kyoto talk on 1940s Jimmu monuments

 
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JLBadgley
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Kyoto talk on 1940s Jimmu monuments Reply with quote
While it seems to deal with more modern history (or modern attitudes at least) than ancient, I thought there might be those in this subforum who would also be interested:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=36047#36047

-Josh
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MexSamurai
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting..

Few months ago, My Professor (at my university) and I had a discussion about Emperor Jimmu -the reputed first Emperor in the Imperial line. And Jimmu is fictiveness.

Professor described the process in detail about Emperor Jimmu's national myths. Mainstream historians such as scholars went no further than to admit that Jimmu acceded in 40 B.C. rather than 660 B.C. Yet even on that point, they forsook academic integrity in 1940 by joining the government-sponsored campaign to mark the 2600th anniversary of Jimmu's accession calculated from the discredited date of 660 B.C. Finally, reluctance to call a myth a myth obtains among historians even today despite substantial democratization in Japanese society overall. However, Jimmu's fictiveness proves problematic. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What do you guys think about the theory that Jimmu was a general from the mainland via the Korean peninsula?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What do I think about it?

What evidence is there for it? What evidence is there for him even existing in the first place?

I don't put any weight in the theory. Like many early figures in all countries, he's an amalgamation of various people and tribes or groups that made social strides forward.
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For example, Koreans at early courts are referred to, but Korean connections with the imperial house are slighted: "some Korean historians argue that Emperor Ojin was in fact himself a Korean". However, Japanese as well as Korean historians think the imperial house may have roots in Korea.
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Existence of Emperor Jimmu is suspicious.
There is no historical, alcheological evidence.
The Jimmu story you read from Kojiki or Nihonshoki are just myth.

Quote:
Japanese as well as Korean historians think the imperial house may have roots in Korea.

Who is the Japanese historian?
Korean historians saying **** are originated in Korea is their habit so foreign historians don't really care.
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Finally, reluctance to call a myth a myth obtains among historians even today despite substantial democratization in Japanese society overall. However, Jimmu's fictiveness proves problematic


There was a real problem with scholars publishing work in earlier times when it came to the, I think it’s fair to say, legend of Emperor Jimmu.

What made the imperial line infallible in the public mind was that it was an unbroken line of decedents from Amaterasu (the sun goddess). One of the pillars of strength for the Imperial house was this correlation and particularly its claim to being a descendent of a god. And thats the key thing here. The story of Jimmu historically has served to address liniage issues within the public mind especially during times when it was politically expedient to do so.

Particularly after the Meiji Restoration, when the pinnacle of government power was no longer shared with a shogunate and was perceived to be in the hands of Emperor Meiji, it would have been in my view, impossible to question the authenticity of the Jimmu Tenno openly.

The Post-War period has to a certain degree brought some distance from those sensitivities. We know that the Kojiki and Nihonshoki do not, as some during the Meiji time claim, act as historical references for the existence of Jimmu. So with that, we don’t have any verifiable evidence of his existence.

Another area that is problematic is Jimmu is considered to the “Founder” of Japan. Based soley on what we actually know, the emergence of the clans (around 300 AD) had developed rice farming and established long term settlements in the yamato plain. The fact that rice fields were long term efforts meant that public migration slowed, establishments such as villages formed and from there a political establishment was able to grow. It would seem much more plausible that a military strong man would claim divinity during this time to control the budding clan with its land and people, then is the fable of a half man – half god pacifying the sacred lands.
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PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Today, I went to library at my university and reading a book- The Chrysanthemum Throne. A History of the Emperors of Japan. By Peter Martin.

In a book: "It was never clearly stated at what precise moment emperors became divine" (p.129). This statement, however, imposes the Western(or Eastern) concept of divinity on Japan and is misleading. The person who is emperor is supposedly a "descendant of the gods."
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Have you read The Emergence of Japanese Kingship (By Joan R. Piggott)? .
According to Joan R. Piggott, Its purpose is to "illuminate processes that shaped early Japanese kingship, to identify its diacritical features, and to consider the significance of some epochal moments along its path" (pg 1-3).

On the whole, The Emergence of Japanese Kingship(book) succeeds admirably at these tasks.

http://www.amazon.com/Emergence-Japanese-Kingship-Joan-Piggott/dp/0804728321/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212721933&sr=8-1 (pretty expensive)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, I've read The Emergence of Japanese Kingship. It's a very good book.

It's best quality is its political analysis of the 5 Kings of Wa.
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