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MexSamurai
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Hagakure Reply with quote
OF COURSE, Tales of the ancient samurai became very popular in Japan as the desperation of their war plight worsened, and among the KAMIKAZE(Japanese kamikaze in WW2) there was a certain fascination with the Hagakure.

Following the tenets of the Hagakure and inspired by Yamamoto's (Hagakure- the author) line 'Men must be the color of cherry blossom, even in death', the Kamikaze when preparing for death dressed themselves as immaculately as possible. Some even inscribed a quote from the Hagakure on their headbands.

After the war, incidentally, many copies of the Hagakure were destroyed so that they would not be read the Occupation authorities; families with kamikame sons believed that possession of the book would label them as 'DANGEROUS and SUBVERSIVE'.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ARGH! Outrage! I can't take it

What's the freaking point about this crappy book you are trying to make? Did I miss something? Is it that this book became an inspiration for WWII kamikaze?

Oh, jeez. Rolling Eyes Here we go.

This book, along with Nitobe's Bushido are truly terrible references that do not reflect the "true way" of the warrior. If there was such a "way", I'd write about it and get more cameos on documentaries than Stephen Turnbull!

Mex, you are entitled to your own opinions, but why does it always come back to Hagakure and Bushido with you? Are you looking for something in these books to romanticize your fascination with samurai history?

IMHO, these books really suck and you are best off making your own judgments about how samurai lived their lives by reading more in-depth history about samurai through the ages. It is sad but true that these books have been manipulated by Japanese in the past to portray distorted images of their country's samurai "history" for propaganda purposes during the war or for other reasons.

Maybe I am wrong, but it also seems like many Westerners who really don't grasp the essence of Japanese history and culture often turn to these two books for their misguided notions of what a noble and honorable life the quintessential samurai lived.

I'm really feeling the need to get going with the establishment of the 果物の最下位 forum so issues like Bullshido and Ha"gag"ure can be discussed to their hearts content among the "sammyrai" without this BS spilling out into the rest of the forum.

Who else feels outraged? Come on! Express it! Just Kidding

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. If people think I'm being harsh, well, I'm outraged as heck and I'm not gonna take it! I'm sick of the rash of mindless and pointless posts that have been flooding the forum as of late! To quote Flo, my favorite waitress at Meiru's Diner, "Kiss my okonomiyaki!" Laughing (Think of Vic Tayback, Linda Lavin... and it may ring a few dingies' bells. Wink )
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brick McBurly
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I'm really feeling the need to get going with the establishment of the 果物の最下位 forum...


Ya know, big guy, I might just have room fer that on my website...
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AJBryant
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Oh, jeez. Rolling Eyes Here we go.

<snip>

Who else feels outraged? Come on! Express it! Just Kidding



Preach it, brah. I am *SO* with you on this one.


Tony
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know if I can be "outraged" any longer about ignorant sammyrai and other folks, mainly from the West, who tout "Hagekure" as the absolute, definitive expression of "samurai philosophy" (whatever that is Confused ).

So I'll say my spiel once more: Yamamoto Tsunetono had NEVER been in a war, he knew absolutely squat about "facing death." He lived a long and peaceful life.

It's as bad as all the Ninja! myths. Mad
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MexSamurai
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Mex, you are entitled to your own opinions, but why does it always come back to Hagakure and Bushido with you? Are you looking for something in these books to romanticize your fascination with samurai history?


Hai, Im interesting in Bushido Philosophy. I possibly practice of Bushido. Just Kidding .. Actaully. Bushido book give me a clear view of what the ethics was like. In my humble opinion, Ethics provide a foundation for life.
U think Bushido as an ethical system?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
MexSamurai wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Mex, you are entitled to your own opinions, but why does it always come back to Hagakure and Bushido with you? Are you looking for something in these books to romanticize your fascination with samurai history?


Hai, Im interesting in Bushido Philosophy. I possibly practice of Bushido. Just Kidding .. Actaully. Bushido book give me a clear view of what the ethics was like. In my humble opinion, Ethics provide a foundation for life.
U think Bushido as an ethical system?

Yes, ethics can provide a foundation for living a good life, but when that ethical system is based on myth and romantic pining for something that never existed, no, it can't be very practical. It's pure fantasy land. So, regarding what do I think about Bushido as an ethical system, I don't!

But it is different strokes for different folks. So, wax it on, wax it off, whenever you like, Mex-san. Go ahead, keep a copy of Bushido in your backpack. Read it on the bus, on the train or a park bench when you need some ethical reinforcement. Go ahead, watch "Ghost Dog" to your heart's content. If you think it makes you a better person, who am I to argue with you on that? Just please don't talk about Bushido and Hagakure so much. It leads to "ARGH! Outrage!" Straining on the obenjo As many of us think those books are full of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Oh, jeez. Rolling Eyes Here we go.

<snip>

Who else feels outraged? Come on! Express it! Just Kidding



Preach it, brah. I am *SO* with you on this one.


Tony


Tony lives!!! Shocked Very Happy

But I am ARGH! OUTRAGED Curses! that you haven't been around!

(OUTRAGE, thanks to Mex's use of it in another thread, is my key word of the moment! I'm lovin' it! Wink )
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry, mate -- horridly busy with a pile of projects (cleaning up and editing a book translation, doing a lengthy and tedious translation, and -- ta da! editing and finalizing an academic book by a foreign gent on Himiko and the ancient Chinese chronicles' take on Yamato/Wa), and can barely come up for air.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Yes, ethics can provide a foundation for living a good life, but when that ethical system is based on myth and romantic pining for something that never existed, no, it can't be very practical.

I take it you're an atheist?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matsuhide wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Yes, ethics can provide a foundation for living a good life, but when that ethical system is based on myth and romantic pining for something that never existed, no, it can't be very practical.

I take it you're an atheist?


I definitely don't like where this is going. The reference was to hagakure and not the bible, so everyone, put the knives down. Not to mention Hagakuso has nothing to do with religion.

Let's keep this on track so I don't have to shut it down.

Anyway, ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Anyway, ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a good blaster at your side.
Thanks, Han "Kitsuno" Solo. Laughing You understood what I meant in my post very clearly. Matsuhide, on the other hand, didn't. And if he's spoiling for a fight, he should know that the farce is very strong in me--especially when I am reading the Hagakuso on the throne. Reading on the obenjo

This thread sucks as it is and I'd be half-tempted to close it because it does seem like a pointless and dead-ended discussion. So go ahead, close it if you wish. I'm not going to complain!
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