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Ogami Itto
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:08 am    Post subject: Help with Kanji to Romaji Reply with quote
Are there any kind persons out there who can help me with transcribing these kanji samurai names to romaji, or check if I have transcribed them correct??
I'm pretty certain of some, but others I dare not try guessing on.

I really suck at Japanese, it's a hell doing it myself...

They are all southern Kyushu samurai families, i found them at http://www2.harimaya.com

島津 Shimazu
祁答院 Kedō-in
入来院 Iriki-in
頴娃 Ei
伊集院 Ijuin
東郷 Tōgō
比志島 Hishishima
川上 Kawakami
町田 Machida
八木 Yagi
平田 Hirata
牛屎 ?
鎌田 Kamada
執印 ?
畠山 Hatakeyama
小川 Ogawa
蒲生 Gamō
肝付 Kimo
菱刈 Hishikari
禰寝 Nezhime
種子島 Tanegashima
伊地知 Ijichi
本田 Honda
上井 Uwai
山田 Yamada
敷根 Shikine
税所 ?
加治木 Kajiki
尚 ?
伊東 Itō
土持 ?
北原 Kitahara
北郷 Hongō
三田井 ?
新納 Niiro
梅北 Umekita
楡井 ?
郡司(那賀)?
米良 Mera
菊池 Kikuchi
阿蘇 Aso
相良 Sagara
小代 ?
名和 Nawa
甲斐 Kai
赤星 Akahoshi
城 ?
託摩 ?
合志 ?
隈部 Kumabe
和仁 Kazuhito
鹿子木 ?
内空閑 ?
志岐 ?
天草 Amakusa
出田 ?
大津山 ?
木山 Kiyama
栖本 ?
大矢野 ?
上津浦 ?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
牛屎 Ushiya
執印 Shuuin
税所 Saisho
尚 Hisashi, Takashi
土持 Tsuchimochi
三田井 Mitai
楡井 Nirei
小代 Odai
城 Jou, Shiro
託摩 Takuma
合志 Goushi
鹿子木 Kanakogi
内空閑 Uchikugi
志岐 Shiki
出田 Ideta
大津山 Otsuyama
栖本 Sumoto
大矢野 Oyano
上津浦 Koutsura
A lot of these names have multiple readings, so I put the likeliest ones. I did not check the others, just the ones with ? marks. John
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Go to McBurly's site HERE and click on the 'Kanji Database' link there. Just plug in the kanji, pick ENAMDICT from the dropdown, and it'll give you a list of name and place readings.

For example, 小代 gives you a laundry list of Chiyo,
Oshiro, Ojiro, Odai, Koshiro, Kodai, Koyo, Sayo, and Shoudai. Maybe a little TOO much info (and some are given names), but a good place to start.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the help!!

Yes that was a nice site, but the many possible readings confuses me. How can you really know which one is the correct?

Chinese is sooo much simpler!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can't, unless, it is a well known name or has a written source with furigana. Even among the names of well known artists there is debate about what reading the artist used during his lifetime in some cases. In lists of artists there are multiple entries for some artists giving the various readings so that research may be done irregardless of how the name is actually read. John
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
尚 can also be 'Shô', when it's the surname of the Kings of Ryukyu, which seems it might be relevant given the focus on Shimazu and other southern daimyo.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ogami Itto wrote:


Yes that was a nice site, but the many possible readings confuses me. How can you really know which one is the correct?



In your case, you'd get ahold of a Japanese historical names dictionary, match the kanji up with the correct description of what you're looking for (since these will also have multiple readings), and take the associated reading.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ogami Itto wrote:


Yes that was a nice site, but the many possible readings confuses me. How can you really know which one is the correct?


Tatsu's right, but I'll put in my 2 cents and say it completely depends on what you're translating. The same 2 kanji could be different depending on WHO is using it. If you're looking at the 16th and 17th century, the Sengoku Jinmei Jiten would be good, but I'm sure there are cases where two families with the same kanji probably have different readings. It depends on exactly who's name you're looking at.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Yes that was a nice site, but the many possible readings confuses me. How can you really know which one is the correct?

Chinese is sooo much simpler!


I understand your pain, my friend. I myself find it quite convenient that Chinese generally has only one reading per character when I'm looking up Chinese names. Even without knowing anything about Chinese, I can look up names like 周煌 and 全魁 (two Chinese investiture envoys to Ryukyu in 1757) and know it's definitely Chou Huang and Quan Kui, no guessing, no multiple readings.

But, I take solace in the fact that unlike Chinese, Japanese is quite easy to pronounce. No tones, and very few bizarre sounds that we don't have in English. ^_^
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't find Chinese that easy to give a reading in English. Pinyin, Wade-Giles etc., dialect eg. your examples, 周煌 Mandarin, Zhou Huang, Cantonese, Jau Wong. 全魁 Mandarin, Quan Kui, Cantonese, Chyun Fui. John
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sure, there are regional variations, different romanization systems, and the whole problem of trying to accurately represent Chinese sounds in English/Roman letters.

But, I think the main point the original poster was trying to make is simply that in Chinese, you don't have the kinds of totally scattered variations you do in Japanese. Is 尚 "Shô"? Hisashi? Nao? In Chinese, it's always Shang, whether you romanize it as Sheng or something else, or whether you pronounce it slightly differently in different regional dialects, it'll never be anything as far off as nao or hisashi, it'll always be something very closely related to the same word Shang.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got you. Japanese isn't too bad with the Onyomi or Kunyomi, but, when it comes to nanori, whew!! John
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Tatsu's right, but I'll put in my 2 cents and say it completely depends on what you're translating. The same 2 kanji could be different depending on WHO is using it. If you're looking at the 16th and 17th century, the Sengoku Jinmei Jiten would be good, but I'm sure there are cases where two families with the same kanji probably have different readings. It depends on exactly who's name you're looking at.


Like 吉川 and 吉川, よしかわ・きっかわ. You simply have to match it up via context. The author isn't Kikkawa Eiji, and the Mori retainer isn't Yoshikawa Motoharu.
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