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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: My translation help thread Reply with quote
In order to unhijack the other thread, I'm creating my own translation request thread, since I've been doing a lot of it lately, and sometimes a brick wall that I can't solve will basically end my translation effort for the day. So here's what I've got now for questions that still go unanswered:

Due to the lack of any pronouns or objects or clear tenses, I'm not sure who is the topic, who would be "joyed" and so on.

一度は都に攻め上る事ができたなら、たとえ死んでも歓喜するところである。

The context here is that this is what Shingen said to Katsuyori on his deathbed (I believe that this is the modern Japanese translation of what is in the Koyo Gunkan, although I haven't gone and pulled that one off the shelf yet) - basically this is his last collection of advice and instructions for Katsuyori before he died - so, I understand the sentence but can't make sense out of it due to the typical lack of a clear subject. Is he saying "If you.. then I.." or "Had I.. then I" or what? Japanese is an easy language grammatically, it's the fact that in its easiness it's so vague that makes it so annoying to translate.

And this:

Juggernaut wrote:

In this context, I think 妄執 would mean obsession. 妄執の随一である would be "my biggest obsession".


Thanks, that was my assumption, but every dictionary gives it a hint of delusion and belief based on false premise. So, maybe "unrealistic obsession"? He's saying this about himself, so I doubt he's calling himself delusional.
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shin no sen
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about a sense of, "Rising up and attacking the capital once, and dying, still I would rejoice." John
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
How about a sense of, "Rising up and attacking the capital once, and dying, still I would rejoice." John


The problem is that doesn't fit the context - "I have some small lands, and have invaded other districts and provinces, and for the most part have no regrets. However, the fact that I wasn't able to raise my flag in the imperial capital has been my most obsessive, if unrealistic, thought. If it becomes known that I have left this world, my enemies will take the opportunity to rise against you. Therefore, for the next three to four years, keep my passing a secret, and secure and fortify the defenses of the domain, build a loyal military force, 一度は都に攻め上る事ができたなら、たとえ死んでも歓喜するところである."

Is this Shingen's master plan to have Katsuyori take Kyoto? If so, there shouldn't even be any doubt or question that Shingen wanted to take Kyoto - this passage from his biography was taken from the Koyo Gunkan, so it seems strange that he'd be telling Katsuyori to make a move on Kyoto, or even that he'd be happy if Katsuyori took or attempted to take Kyoto, when it seems no historian can say much more than "Shingen might have been planning on going to Kyoto before he died". Not only that, but all of his advice so far has been to keep Katsuyori and the clan safe in Kai, not to go marching off on some foolish suicide crusade. So I'm confused by both that and the vague grammar.
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shin no sen
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, a little stilted for that passage. John
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me what 義卒 is? Apparently it's beyond not only my electronic dictionary, but also the three online dictionaries I use, and it has stopped my blog translation dead in its tracks.


The Kojien gives
1.A loyal soldier
2. a soldier in a just cause.
Could it be 1?

#忠義な兵卒。
#正義のために起す兵。
[株式会社岩波書店 広辞苑第五版]

Quote:
As an aside, in regards to 妄執 - in a biography on Takeda Shingen I'm translating a section on, on his deathbed he said that his "failure to fly [my] flag in Kyoto was [my] biggest 妄執の随一である". Now, it isn't often that people admit to having a delusion, so I'm having trouble understanding exactly what 妄執 means in this context. Any insights?


妄執môshû is a Buddhist term meaning
迷妄の執念, obsession with a delusion. As a Buddhist he would probably admit that worldly things are a delusion.

The moral: get the Kojien
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:


妄執môshû is a Buddhist term meaning
迷妄の執念, obsession with a delusion. As a Buddhist he would probably admit that worldly things are a delusion.

The moral: get the Kojien


I still have a problem with the word "delusion" and all it denotes. Maybe the word we are looking for in English is "illusion" or "illusory" or "transitory" or "unrealistic"? Someone who is having a delusion is out of touch with reality and doesn't know they are having a delusion, they believe it to be true, so they can't admit they are having a delusion.

1
: the act of deluding : the state of being deluded
2
a : something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs
— de·lu·sion·al \-ˈlüzh-nəl, -ˈlü-zhə-nəl\ adjective
— de·lu·sion·ary \-zhə-ˌner-ē\ adjective
See delusion defined for English-language learners »
Examples of DELUSION

1. He has delusions about how much money he can make at that job.
2. He is living under the delusion that he is incapable of making mistakes.
3. She is under the delusion that we will finish on time.
4. As the illness progressed, his delusions took over and he had violent outbursts.
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