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heron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject: Translation help Reply with quote
I am trying to translate the article http://mitizane.ll.chiba-u.jp/metadb/up/igakukai/84-5-221.pdf

Can anyone help me with the meaning of these sentences?

既に存在 していなかった

安左衛門は与市を幣した後

この行為が,人
道からも“不文の律”からも逸脱しており,その
ため安左衛門は高野山から仇討とは認められず,
高野山からの下山を仲々許されなかった

仲々

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay I'm going to make an attempt. I only studied Japanese for three years and that was six years ago... I'm VERY out of practice, but the internet is very helpful. It's good practice so I'll give it a shot...
First I'll attempt a chronological translation to help associate meanings (and clarify the corrections that I'm sure are to come), then I'll try to make it make some English gramatical sense as well... Here goes:

Already (too late?) wasn't existing.
Yasuzaemon, after making a -?- (Shinto cloth offering?) of Yoichi,
that act, person (people?),
even from teaching (Fumi/road?), even from unspoken law, diverge/deviation, in order for that, Yasuzaemon, from Kounoyama, retaliation(?) with (about) unable to approve, from Kounoyama, Ka( or various other pronunciations of "下")yama very much couldn't approve of.
same "nakanaka" as above, meaning "very much" or "considerably;" not sure why it's here...


(Something?) didn't exist yet.
After Yasuzaemon made an offering out of Yoichi (?); with such acts, people diverge even from the teachings and unspoken law, and Yasuzaemon from Kounoyama could not approve.
Kayama from Kounoyama very much couldn't approve.
Very much.


That's my best go at it... Please don't take it too seriously unless it gets looked over/corrected by others as I'm sure there are MAJOR mistakes.
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heron
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yasuzaemon has committed an act of revenge against Yoichi and then despoils his corpse, so I don't understand the meaning of 幣した - does it mean he made an offering (nusa or gohei) after killing him?

This was my attempt at the third sentence

In order to carry out this action which went far beyond the unwritten laws of humanity, Yasuzaemon acted without the revenge being confirmed by Kouyosan and without permission to leave.

so is 仲々 the same as nakanaka?

In the first sentence I can't quite understand the meaning of 既に here - talking Ieyasu and his laws with reference to the Taiho Code. "on the contrary it did not exist"? or "he did not bring it(them) into existence"?

Thanks for the help.

Here's another one: what exactly is the meaning of 下手人. Is it someone who stands in for someone else and is punished in their place?
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Juggernaut
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This act was considered to violate humanism and the "unwritten law", and therefore Kouya-san did not admit this act as vendetta, and Anzaemon weren't allowed to leave Kouya-san easily.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Juggernaut - we posted at the same time. I think I've got the meaning of this sentence now. And someone else has just told me 既に can be read the same is もう so that makes more sense: they no longer existed?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
下手人 geshunin; criminal
既に sudeni; too late
John
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Juggernaut wrote:
This act was considered to violate humanism and the "unwritten law", and therefore Kouya-san did not admit this act as vendetta, and Anzaemon weren't allowed to leave Kouya-san easily.

This is good, except that that "nakanaka yurusanakata" means they would not allow it, [despite his repeated tries].

I think nakanaka....nai is basically an expression of frustration at an unchanging situation. It can often imply repeated or strong attempts to do something, but can be used when there is nothing you can even try to do:
Kôtsûjûtai de, kuruma ga nakanaka susumanakatta. (Because of the traffic jam, the car simply did not move.)
Kare ga nakanaka rikai shiyô to shinai. (He makes absolutely no attempt to understand.)

Yes, 既に存在 していなかった means "it had already gone out of existence."
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me what 義卒 is? Apparently it's beyond not only my electronic dictionary, but also the three online dictionaries I use, and it has stopped my blog translation dead in its tracks.

As an aside, in regards to 妄執 - in a biography on Takeda Shingen I'm translating a section on, on his deathbed he said that his "failure to fly [my] flag in Kyoto was [my] biggest 妄執の随一である". Now, it isn't often that people admit to having a delusion, so I'm having trouble understanding exactly what 妄執 means in this context. Any insights?
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me what 義卒 is? Apparently it's beyond not only my electronic dictionary, but also the three online dictionaries I use, and it has stopped my blog translation dead in its tracks.


I don't know how I feel about the shogun, himself, hijacking a thread, but:

http://wkwkmojiland.biz/kanji/jisho6/j6347.html

It apparently refers to soldiers that are raised for a just cause, whatever that may be in your context.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:


I don't know how I feel about the shogun, himself, hijacking a thread


Careful, you, or he's going to start making us stay in Hawaii for a year at a time!

Actually, doesn't sound too bad... Though it would be at our own expense of course...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me what 義卒 is? Apparently it's beyond not only my electronic dictionary, but also the three online dictionaries I use, and it has stopped my blog translation dead in its tracks.


I don't know how I feel about the shogun, himself, hijacking a thread, but:

http://wkwkmojiland.biz/kanji/jisho6/j6347.html

It apparently refers to soldiers that are raised for a just cause, whatever that may be in your context.


Can the owner of the airline really hijack one of their own airplanes? Laughing Any thoughts on my other question?

You have no idea how much that picture of bakatono threw me.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
You have no idea how much that picture of bakatono threw me.


Me too. I thought...waitaminute...is this the Amalgam universe all over?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
By the way, I was pretty sure that the original question had been answered, which is why I tacked mine on here rather than create a new "translation" thread.

So, anyway, I still have the 妄執 question from above, but also this sentence, which due to the lack of any pronouns or objects or clear tenses, I'm not sure who is the topic, who would be "joyed" and so on.

一度は都に攻め上る事ができたなら、たとえ死んでも歓喜するところである。

The context here is that this is what Shingen said to Katsuyori on his deathbed - basically his last collection of advice and instructions for Katsuyori before he died - so, I understand the sentence but can't make sense out of it due to the typical lack of a clear subject. Is he saying "If you.. then I.." or "Had I.. then I" or what? Japanese is an easy language grammatically, it's the fact that in its easiness it's so vague that makes it so tough sometimes.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
下手人 geshunin; criminal
John

I think it must have a meaning beyond just criminal as it comes in a list of capital punishments under the Tokugawa Bakufu.

Thanks for your help, everyone.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
shin no sen wrote:
下手人 geshunin; criminal
John

I think it must have a meaning beyond just criminal as it comes in a list of capital punishments under the Tokugawa Bakufu.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Japanese wikipedia says it now exclusively means "murderer." Tried to link it last night but all links came up blank so I gave up...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
義卒 What did you determine here? A veteran soldier? or conscript? are not all causes just, to the leaders of each side?
下手人 Well, I get it as any offender or criminal, 'person under the hand' like dirt at your feet.
妄執 moushuu, deep rooted delusion, maybe meaning ignoring something that is staring you right in the face
John
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matsuhide wrote:
heron wrote:
shin no sen wrote:
下手人 geshunin; criminal
John

I think it must have a meaning beyond just criminal as it comes in a list of capital punishments under the Tokugawa Bakufu.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Japanese wikipedia says it now exclusively means "murderer." Tried to link it last night but all links came up blank so I gave up...


It may mean 'murderer' exclusively now - but in the Edo period it was one of the forms of capital punishment - the least severe one. Anyway, I think it means beheading, but with the right to have your body returned to your family for burial. It is also written 解死人 and at one stage did refer to a kind of substitute or hostage situation between the concerned parties in murder cases.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/下手人
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, 人殺し hitogoroshi, person killer 殺人者 satsujinsha, person that kills a person. I didn't think these words would be used for substitutes for punishment. I would have thought 身代わり migawari. Doesn't really matter much, just interesting. John
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:

This is good, except that that "nakanaka yurusanakata" means they would not allow it, [despite his repeated tries].

I think nakanaka....nai is basically an expression of frustration at an unchanging situation. It can often imply repeated or strong attempts to do something, but can be used when there is nothing you can even try to do:
Kôtsûjûtai de, kuruma ga nakanaka susumanakatta. (Because of the traffic jam, the car simply did not move.)
Kare ga nakanaka rikai shiyô to shinai. (He makes absolutely no attempt to understand.)

AFAIK nakanaka implies that it was accepted/have happened although it took a long time or was difficult. So in this case I thought "nakanaka yurusanakata" meant he was eventually allowed to leave, although with difficulty. Maybe a better translation would be "he was not allowed to leave Kouya-san for a long time"?

kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject, can anyone tell me what 義卒 is? Apparently it's beyond not only my electronic dictionary, but also the three online dictionaries I use, and it has stopped my blog translation dead in its tracks.


Can you tell me the context?

Quote:
As an aside, in regards to 妄執 - in a biography on Takeda Shingen I'm translating a section on, on his deathbed he said that his "failure to fly [my] flag in Kyoto was [my] biggest 妄執の随一である". Now, it isn't often that people admit to having a delusion, so I'm having trouble understanding exactly what 妄執 means in this context. Any insights?

In this context, I think 妄執 would mean obsession. 妄執の随一である would be "my biggest obsession".
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Juggernaut wrote:
Bethetsu:yurusanakata" means they would not allow it, [despite his repeated tries].

AFAIK nakanaka implies that it was accepted/have happened although it took a long time or was difficult. So in this case I thought "nakanaka yurusanakata" meant he was eventually allowed to leave, although with difficulty. Maybe a better translation would be "he was not allowed to leave Kouya-san for a long time"?

I don't thing nakanaka necessarily means it never happened, but I don't think it implies in itself that it eventually did happen. For example "basu [bus] ga nakanaka konai no de, iku no wo yamechatta" (As the bus just did not come, we gave up going). If Yasuzaemon did get permission, I think you would need another statement following like "Finally the next spring..."
Techinically speaking, I think nakanaka modifies the whole sentence. The English "easily" modifies the verb, and so the "not" attaches to the adverb and we get "not easily". Of course, I am not a native speaker.
Heron, what does it say after that? Did he ever get to leave?


Geshunin下手人
In the Edo period, decapitation that was used for those who committed murder or directed a murder.
江戸時代、人を殺し、また、殺人の指揮などをしたものに適用する斬首刑
[株式会社岩波書店 広辞苑第五版]
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heron
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey, I got my thread back!

Bethetsu, that is the end of the piece about Yasuzaemon. I thought from the context it is saying he left without permission, as well as carrying out an unauthorized revenge. You can see the whole article here:
http://mitizane.ll.chiba-u.jp/metadb/up/igakukai/84-5-221.pdf

Thanks also for the information about geshunin Very Happy Any ideas about 幣した?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
安左衛門は与市を幣した後,遺体に数カ所斬り つけ,これを囲炉裡に蹴落とした。この行為を「さいなみ(虐)」と記している。死体を毀損する ことを意味しているのであろう。この行為が,人 道からも“不文の律”からも逸脱しており,その ため安左衛門は高野山から仇討とは認められず, 高野山からの下山を仲々許されなかった

与市を幣した Since幣is an offering to the gods, maybe it means that he killed Yoichi as an offering to the spirit of his brother.

I would translated the final sentence thus:
This action deviated both from the way of humanity and from the unwritten law, and therefore Anzaemon('s action) was not recognized as (legitimate) revenge by Koya-san, and they absolutely refused him permission to leave Koya-san (so he had to remain a monk?).
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heron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks again Smile (I don't think I could bear to disable smilies Very Happy)
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