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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Takuan, you old pickle,

I can assure you, as long as you don't ask about the role of ninjers in the war and how Korean and Chinese ninjers differed from their Japanese counterparts, you won't get laughed at. In truth, it always boils down to how the question is asked. PLEASE ask questions. BASIC ONES ARE FINE, but it is helpful if you do a little reading on the subject first or at least try to google the subject you want to ask about before posting your question. If you aren't going to be able to get your hands on any of the recommended books, the articles that I've uploaded may also be of help/interest.

Again, ask questions! Otherwise you won't get what you want out of this study group, if you really are interested in the topic. If your question is really basic, rather than laughing at you, you'll probably get guided to readily available source where you can find the answer. You can always PM "friendlies" with your questions if you are uber-worried about posting publicly, but I don't think you have to worry. Wink
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shiki,

See if you can find these Japanese books that cover the Imjin War:

1. Ishihara, Michihiro, Bunroku keichıo no eki (Tokyo: Hanawa shobo, 1963).

2. Yamamoto, Masayoshi, comp., Shimazu kokushi: History of the Feudal Domain of the Shimazu clan, 10 vols. (Tokyo: Seikyo kappan insatsujo, 1905).-- A PRIMARY SOURCE!

3. Katano Tsugio, Yi Sun-Sin to Hideyoshi, Bunroku Keicho no Kaisen, Tokyo 1983.

4. Naito Shunpo, Bunroku Keicho no Eki Niokeru Hiryonin no Kenyu, Tokyo 1976.

5. Takenouchi Kazusai, Ehon Taikoki (woodblock print edition)

Also, 朝鮮日々記を読む―真宗僧が見た秀吉の朝鮮侵略 is available on Amazon.co.jp. It takes 3-5 weeks for delivery and it is 7,875 yen, but it looks interesting.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
My local liberary doesn't have the book.

If you live in Tokyo try
http://www.library.metro.tokyo.jp/index.html
and ask your local library to get it from there.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Bethetsu.
I didn't know the Tokyo liberaries have book sharing system.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kitajima Manji's books sound pretty interesting. Has anyone read them?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
Kitajima Manji's books sound pretty interesting. Has anyone read them?


That's my main source.

I have copy of whole Wakizaka-ki from Zoku Gunsho Ruiju.
Does anybody want it?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
I have copy of whole Wakizaka-ki from Zoku Gunsho Ruiju.
Does anybody want it?


Me! Me! Me!

I'll PM you with my email. Thanks much!
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
bump
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am familiar with the various Imjin War threads and I know that there has been conversation about how much of a dominant force the Ming armies were. Specifically that some people feel the Ming dominated and routed the Japanese forces while others feel that the Ming were not as effective as many believe. From what I have read I tend to believe that, although the Ming were a major factor, it was other factors such as stretched supply lines and the Korean naval victories that were the primary reasons for the Japanese losses in Korea.

What do others here feel about the effectiveness of the Ming armies?

Also, I have not read Hawley's book (due to cost) and I was wondering how Hawley portrayed the impact of the Ming invasions on the direction of the war from the Japanese perspective?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
I am familiar with the various Imjin War threads and I know that there has been conversation about how much of a dominant force the Ming armies were. Specifically that some people feel the Ming dominated and routed the Japanese forces while others feel that the Ming were not as effective as many believe. From what I have read I tend to believe that, although the Ming were a major factor, it was other factors such as stretched supply lines and the Korean naval victories that were the primary reasons for the Japanese losses in Korea.

What do others here feel about the effectiveness of the Ming armies?

Also, I have not read Hawley's book (due to cost) and I was wondering how Hawley portrayed the impact of the Ming invasions on the direction of the war from the Japanese perspective?


They were effective enough to pose a very legitimate threat to Japanese armies at least, even if on the field or while they were sitting in their castles, which was already way more than anything the Korean on land could do, the Korean standing army was essentially useless and their insurgents while giving the Japanese an incrediablly tough stratgic problem, were not capable of actually dislodging the Japanese from a defensive position, or really even attempting to dislodge them. all they could really do is hit and run on small groups and occasionally put up enough defense on very tough defensive position against the Japanese advances.

Of course, effectiveness varied, the Ming themself entered into a logistical nightmare situation in Korea, having assumed that the Korean court would actually manage to supply them to some extend, only to realize that was pure fanatasy upon entrance, the logistic line from Manchuria into Korea was pretty messed up from the records, it seem that road condition in Korea espeically in the north was generally awful, especially outside of the winter months. Which was why the Ming purposed putting a full military farm garrison in Seoul during the inter-war years, but the Joseon court was terrified by that idea (since they weren't exactly completely unwary of the possibility of the Chinese takeover either.)

For the most part it seemed that outside of the battle of PyongYang, the Ming were working in rather handicaped situation as well, in PyongYang battle records showed that they fired massive vollies of rocket arrows into the city, essentially burning it to the ground and combined it with quite a large number of artillery fire, but there were almost no record of similar use of rocket arrows afterwards, presumablly because they could not keep the one and gone rocket arrows supplied enough so they only used them sparingly afterwards, while the only other notable use of artillery came in the very end of the war in 98 in the ill fated siege of Sacheon
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
while others feel that the Ming were not as effective as many believe.


I remember the discussion. When I brought up Kenneth Swope's article some guys didn't like it.
I think Ming was effective, they had massive fire arms.
Kiyomasa was almost ready to surrender.


Is there English translation of 両朝平壌録? Or does anybody know original text of 両朝平壌録 that we can read online?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
When I brought up Kenneth Swope's article some guys didn't like it.


Because Swope is a hack with an agenda. Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
shikisoku wrote:
When I brought up Kenneth Swope's article some guys didn't like it.


Because Swope is a hack with an agenda. Laughing


I often come across people on Youtube or other places who state that the Ming armies crushed the Japanese forces. And the only reason the Japanese forces were pushed back and "defeated" was due to the Ming invasions. Of course the Ming had a major impact but as we all know the Japanese forces suffered from disease, over stretched supply lines, and Korean guerrilla forces well before the Ming had any impact.

But they don't listen.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Quote:
while others feel that the Ming were not as effective as many believe.


I remember the discussion. When I brought up Kenneth Swope's article some guys didn't like it.
I think Ming was effective, they had massive fire arms.
Kiyomasa was almost ready to surrender.


Is there English translation of 両朝平壌録? Or does anybody know original text of 両朝平壌録 that we can read online?

両朝平壌録 was written after the event and by a person that wasn't in Korea at that time, I wouldn't rely on it as the best primary source out there.

If your really going into he academic level then starting with the Joseon and Ming court annals (which are all well preserved) is probably the best, and then try to piece together as many different clan's account of the story and of course Yi Sun Sin's diary, after that try to find other Korean records of the time on the issue.

It's obviously not easy work, I've read a good bit of Yu Seong-ryong's book on this issue but it didn't offer that much insight beyond the fact that

A. the Jeoson court was having a spetacular political struggle during the whole war, even while they were running for their lifes

and

B. the court and the Ming were hardly best buddies. there were plenty of disagreements.

but Yu's a administrator and not a general, so that's to be expected.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rolling Wave, I recently read another criticism of Swope's book and wondered if you know what's the deal with Song's participation in the war?

Another Swope Critic wrote:
"I don't mean to be rude but those people who gave this book 5 stars either didn't pay attention to what Swope wrote or they haven't read other sources on the Imjin War. In Swope's book, beginning on Page 150, he implies that Song Yingchang went with the army to Korea. In Page 156, he wrote that Song Yingchang led troops into battle and participated in the capture of Pyongyang. Yet Song was nowhere near Korea during that time and his own letters showed that he never set foot in Korea. This was also documented in the Ming Shi (History of the Ming), complied during the Qing Dynasty.

I don't care what sources Swope used to come to this conclusion but I would think that Song's OWN LETTERS would supersede any other source. This has led to think that Swope didn't bother with that important primary source and probably got his information from a secondary source. Even Hawley, who he criticizes in his footnotes if you bothered looking at them, didn't write about Song setting foot in Korea. This is a major error that SHOULD NOT be present in an academic text, particularly one that claims to be correcting biases with more research. Three stars is what I'm giving it and I recommend you not waste your money and just go buy Hawley's version."

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
WHile Amazon's merchant vendor prices on Hawley's book have always been somewhat unrealistic, the latest is a whopper: $2779.30 for a new copy!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If Swope is intentionally distorting facts, maybe he has Chinese patron but such an academic lobby is remarkable in Korean side too.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
WHile Amazon's merchant vendor prices on Hawley's book have always been somewhat unrealistic, the latest is a whopper: $2779.30 for a new copy!


How is that possible for the book to cost that much? What are there only 12 copies available in print? Geez print some more dammit. In this era of ebook seems so absurd that a book like this is only available in hard copy for these absurd prices.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
^^^^Contact the Royal Asiatic Society - Korea Branch. I wanted to post this earlier but it took forever to get my account activated. They were having a book sale that just ended. I got Hawley for ~20$.

Hey guys hope you don't mind me resurrecting this zombie thread and I appreciate any help anyone can offer.

I have a couple questions about the timelines presented in Hawley vs. the timeline presented in Swope (I've read the criticism posted here).

1st.)
Swope pg.89 wrote:
When he finally arrived at Nagoya, Hideyoshi stoked the troops' battle lust with another bombastic spech, telling them how weak their foes were and how much glory they would earn.....At the sound of a gong, the sails fluttered, and the vessels launched in unison, firing flaming arrows into the sky to make their departure.


But Hawley says that the 1st 2nd and 3rd divisions were already on the staging grounds at Tsushima while Hideyoshi was still travelling to Nagoya, making it impossible that Hideyoshi actually could have seen them off.

Is Swope totally wrong here or was Hideyoshi seeing off the divisions that arrived later, not the actual spearhead?

2nd.)
I'm a bit confused about the timeline immediately after the first landing. Please correct me where I'm wrong. This is using modern calendar dates.

May 23
1st Division leaves Tsushima for Busan arrives in the afternoon.
Yoshitoshi and Genso make a last minute offer to the commander of Busan.

May 24
Troops disembark in the morning and split.
Yukinaga takes the naval fort while Yoshitoshi takes Busan castle.

My questions are:
When do Yukinaga and Yoshitoshi link up again? Evening of the 24th or morning of the 25th?
When do they start marching north to Dongnae?
What time on the 25th do they arrive at Dongnae?
What time does the battle start? I know it's finished "on" May 26th.
When does Won Gyun start scuttling the Gyeongsang Right Navy?

Thanks a lot for any help anyone can give with any of my questions it is greatly appreciated :)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hawley's account is correct. Swopes isn't wrong per se, just quoting from a source (although he accepts it as fact without researching further). His source is a family account written almost 300 years later in the Meiji period when jumping on the anti-Korean sentiment wagon was all the rage in Japan again and it was OK to write about Hideyoshi's invasions. These family accounts were written primarily to make the clan look as glorious as possible, so they threw in Hideyoshi (who was also back in fashion in Meiji) looking upon their ancestor's display of religious fervor with approval (IIRC, the Matsuura family). But there are letters showing Hideyoshi was still two weeks away from Nagoya when the invasion started.

So and Konishi's forces rested where they were after meeting their objectives, and met up while marching north the next morning. They left at first light (maybe about 530 AM-6, could be as early as 4:30) and arrived at Tongnae two hours later (probably closer to 2 1/2, since daytime Japanese hours at the time were longer after the Winter solstice and before the Summer solstice). The battle started immediately and they were finished mopping up the next day.

The Korean GRN scuttled its ships the day Pusan was conquered.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks so much for the clarification. I appreciate it!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
1592-Jan-18 Hideyoshi ordered Kato Kiyomasa, Kuroda Nagamasa, and Mori Yoshinari to station in Iki and Tsushima.(秀吉朱印状 dated Tensho20-1-18 )

1592-Mar-12 Konishi Yukinaga arrived in Tsushima (西征日記)

1592-Mar-13 Hideyoshi officially ordered Korean campaign.(秀吉朱印状 dated Tensho20-3-13)

1592-Apr-13 Konishi Yukinaga and So Yoshitoshi(1st Division) left Tsushima and arrived in Busan.(西征日記 and 宣祖実録)

1592-Apr-14 Busan fallen.1st Division headed to Tongnae.(西征日記 and 壬辰遺聞)

1592-Apr-18(17 in Japanese calender) Kato Kiyomasa(2nd Division) arrived in Busan.(北島万次「豊臣秀吉の朝鮮侵略」)

1592-Apr-18(17) Kuroda Nagamasa(3rd Division) and Mori Yoshinari(4th Division) arrived in Kimhae.(壬辰録)

1592-Apr-25 Hideyoshi first arrived at Nagoya.(等持院文書 dated Tensho20-6)

1592-Apr-29(28J) 2nd Division joined to 1st Division in Chunju.(池内宏「文禄・慶長の役」)


I have a copy of 西征日記, it says the 1st Division arrived in Tongnae at 辰刻 which is between AM7-9?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would like to clear up some date issues.
Tikh says that his timeline uses the modern (western) calendar. (That is sensible, since the Japanese and Korean [= Chinese] calendars of the time could differ.)

Shikisoku's calendar uses direct translation, as he translates Tensho 20-1018 as Jan 18. And 3-13 as March 13.
But when he says April 17 was April (?)18 in the Japanese calendar, that is impossible. also It is possible that Japanese 4-25 was in June (I do not have my calendar available), but impossible that the Japanese 6th month was in April.
You need to compare on a common calendar.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shiki's dates use the Chinese calendar directly into English, which is ambiguous, so "April" instrad of the more common "4th month"

I will give western (Gregorian), Chinese, Japanese
1592-March 1;1/18;1/18 Hideyoshi ordered Kato Kiyomasa, Kuroda Nagamasa, and Mori Yoshinari to station in Iki and Tsushima.(秀吉朱印状 dated Tensho20-1-18 )

Apr 23;3/12;3/12 Konishi Yukinaga arrived in Tsushima (西征日記)

1592-apr 24;3/13;3/13 Hideyoshi officially ordered Korean campaign.(秀吉朱印状 dated Tensho20-3-13)
Chinese and Japanese calendars for 4th month different

1592-may 23;4/13;4/12 Konishi Yukinaga and So Yoshitoshi(1st Division) left Tsushima and arrived in Busan.(西征日記 and 宣祖実録)

1592-may 24;4/14;4/13 Busan fallen.1st Division headed to Tongnae.(西征日記 and 壬辰遺聞)

May 28;4/18;4/17 Kato Kiyomasa(2nd Division) arrived in Busan.(北島万次「豊臣秀吉の朝鮮侵略」)

1592-May 28;4/18;4/17 Kuroda Nagamasa(3rd Division) and Mori Yoshinari(4th Division) arrived in Kimhae.(壬辰録)

1592-June 4; 4/25; 4/24 (uncertain of calendar used) Hideyoshi first arrived at Nagoya.(等持院文書 dated Tensho20-6?? Or maybe this is the date of the source, not his arrival?)

1592-june 8;4/29;4/28 2nd Division joined to 1st Division in Chunju.(池内宏「文禄・慶長の役」)


I have a copy of 西征日記, it says the 1st Division arrived in Tongnae at 辰刻 which is between AM7-9? Yes, about.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey all, a couple more questions!

When did Kato and Konishi and Kuroda arrive at the Imjin River? The battle itself was July 6-7 (western calendar), but there was a period of 10 days where the Japanese camped out before the fighting began, right?

Why did Kato agree to go on the expedition to Hamgyeong Province? Wouldn't he have demanded the prestige of attacking Pyongyang?

Where can I read about Katos campaign in Hamgyeong? Hawley and Turnbull are pretty sparse on the matter.

Thanks in advance for any help!
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