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Teppou unit list from 鉄砲と戦国合戦by宇田川武久

 
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wiranobu
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject: Teppou unit list from 鉄砲と戦国合戦by宇田川武久 Reply with quote
I have in my possession a Japanese book by the name of 鉄砲と戦国合戦 - 鉄砲戦国氏 -日本人はなぜ火縄銃にこだわったのか?

Considering my JLPT skill of only the old 3rd level (today's 4th level), so far I could only read and understand about 20-50 pages out of 212 pages of goodness.

On page 146 and 147 there is a table of teppou units of Sengoku Jidai with year and daimyo name, but I can't figure out some of the names

表4 戦国期における鉄砲衆の一覧

年  月  日          大 名        
永禄 8・7.3   (下忩)千葉胤富一井田平三郎 
永禄 12・5・3   (相模) 北条氏政ー清水新七郎
永禄 12・6・6   (陸奥)南慶儀ー(八戸政栄)
元亀 3・8・11   (甲斐)武田信玄ー葛山衆
元亀 4・2・14   (常陸)佐竹義重ー
天正 2・1・21   (安芸)吉川元春ー井上元教
天正 5・5・19   (相模)北条ー北条氏繁
天正 5・10・11  (摂津)下間頼廉一雑賀御房
天正 6・6・27   (摂津)下間頼廉一了順御房
(年末詳)       (陸奥)伊達家連署一杉目
天正 7・7・12   (越後)上杉景勝一登坂・深沢
天正 7・8・5    (三河)徳川家康
天正 10・4・9   (越後)中条与次ーおはりに
天正 10・7・12      (三河)
天正 10・10・6      (三河)
天正 11・12・6      (相模)
天正 13・8・27   (出羽)伊達政宗ー山形殿
天正 13・9・10   (相模)北条氏一神宮武兵衛
天正 14・12・15  (豊後)大友宗滴ー長宗我部元臣
天正 16・5・13   (常陸)佐竹義重一赤坂左馬助
天正 17・4・18   (陸奥)伊達政宗―宛欠
天正 17・5・28   (陸奥)伊達政宗―福原氏
天正 17・6・6    (陸奥)伊達政宗―赤井景綱

list is updated to full now. Enjoy!
Anyone know how to make a proper table? There's actually more data on a new column for 事項 and 文書名
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You must have put a lot of work in the inputting.

It looks to me like a list of early references to a daimyo employing a teppo unit (衆)in battle, since they give a specific date. So there is a reference to the Chiba using one on Eiroku 8 (1565)/7/3. (By the way Tatsunoshi knows everything about the Chibas.) Ieyasau used one Tenshô 7 (1579) /8/5.
The second name may be that of the the commander, or some other comment. The last item seems to say where the battle took place--in Owari.
(By the way, Genki is 元亀.)

Are there names you need particular help for?
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oops you caught me at genki, that was embarrasing Laughing

these are the kanjis I could read (with the help of google translate), the rest I'm not sure of

(下忩)Chiba胤富一井田平三郎
(Sagami) Hojo Ujimasa ー清水新七郎
(Mutsu)南慶儀ー(Hachinoe 政栄)
(甲斐)Takeda Shingenー葛山衆
(Hitachi)佐竹義重ー
(安芸)Yoshikawa元春ーInoue元教
(Sagami)Hojoー北条氏繁
(Settsu)下間頼廉一雑賀御房
(Settsu)下間頼廉一了順御房
I don't understand this --> (年末詳) 
(Mutsu)伊達家連署一杉目
(Echigo)Uesugi景勝一登坂・深沢
(Mikawa)Tokugawa家康
(Echigo)中条与次ーIn Owari
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
It looks to me like a list of early references to a daimyo employing a teppo unit (衆)in battle, since they give a specific date.


Doesn't look like we can tell that from the list itself, as that doesn't make any sense with the dates involved, at least if you're saying it's the "first" use by that daimyo. Tokugawa Ieyasu certainly had teppo and used them prior to 1579.

Wiranobu, is there any way you can scan the document and post it here as a picture? There's some context missing that would help identify what exactly it is a list of. As Bethetsu said, 衆 is often used to delineate different units. Sometimes you see it as a functional group, ie. the 鉄砲衆, or arquebus corps, sometimes it's a geographic division, like the 国衆, kunishuu, men from the provinces, or 越後衆, men from Echigo. I agree with Bethetsu that the list is describing groups of arquebusiers and their use in battle. The problem is, I'm unsure from what you have here why these particular instances are being listed, as opposed to any others. It may just be the ones the author chose to study, but nothing about what you posted tells me that. There were obviously a lot more instances of teppo being used in combat than just what's on this list.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
(下忩)Chiba胤富一井田平三郎
Shimosa, Chiba Tanetomi--Ida Heisaburou

(Sagami) Hojo Ujimasa ー清水新七郎
Shimizu Shinchichirou


(甲斐)Takeda Shingenー葛山衆
Kai.....Kuzuyama-shuu

(Hitachi)佐竹義重ー Satake Yoshishige

(安芸)Yoshikawa元春ーInoue元教
Aki Kikkawa (same kanji as Yoshikawa, but it's Kikkawa) Motoharu--Inoue Mototaka

(Sagami)Hojoー北条氏繁
Houjou Ujishige

(Settsu)下間頼廉一雑賀御房
Shimodzuma Yorikado--Saika Onbou

(Settsu)下間頼廉一了順御房
Shimodzuma Yorikado--Ryoujun Onbou

(Mutsu)伊達家連署一杉目
Date-ke Renshou--Sugime


(Echigo)Uesugi景勝一登坂・深沢
Uesugi Kagekatsu --Noborizaka/Fukazawa

(Mikawa)Tokugawa家康
Ieyasu

(Echigo)中条与次ーIn Owari
Nakajou Yoji


For reference, I've rendered おう sounds as ou, though academically speaking they're better as an o with a macron over them. I can't do that easily in my web browser.

A trick you can use is to take a kanji combination you don't know, go to google.co.jp, and enter it in to the search bar. If you're lucky, it will come up with the Japanese wikipedia page, which will give you a reading in kana. If not, you may have to search through some pages to find something, or you might have to redo your search by breaking the kanji into smaller/different combinations.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Bethetsu wrote:
It looks to me like a list of early references to a daimyo employing a teppo unit (衆)in battle, since they give a specific date.


Doesn't look like we can tell that from the list itself, as that doesn't make any sense with the dates involved, at least if you're saying it's the "first" use by that daimyo. Tokugawa Ieyasu certainly had teppo and used them prior to 1579.

Wiranobu, is there any way you can scan the document and post it here as a picture? There's some context missing that would help identify what exactly it is a list of. As Bethetsu said, 衆 is often used to delineate different units. Sometimes you see it as a functional group, ie. the 鉄砲衆, or arquebus corps, sometimes it's a geographic division, like the 国衆, kunishuu, men from the provinces, or 越後衆, men from Echigo. I agree with Bethetsu that the list is describing groups of arquebusiers and their use in battle. The problem is, I'm unsure from what you have here why these particular instances are being listed, as opposed to any others. It may just be the ones the author chose to study, but nothing about what you posted tells me that. There were obviously a lot more instances of teppo being used in combat than just what's on this list.


Sure, I'll scan the entire chapter after this.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry, My scanner broke..
No other choice but to take photos
Sorry for wobbly images

http://imageshack.us/gal.php?id=q5mnks_myZyql6uV5OmU1unLpA
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Udagawa quotes some letters, diaries, reports, etc. and then says:
p. 148 "So we see that Teppo-shu existed throughout the country. Rather than going to the trouble of explaining each one, I have made a simple table of "Teppo-shu in the Sengoku" centering around the period, region, and the lord."
So the date is that of the references. He seems to be sticking here to letters, diaries, and such. Like the reference to Ieyasu was from the "Ietada Diary." The content of the references is in the "Jikô" and they all seem to have the word "Teppo-shu". So he is concerned here about shû (units), not just individual marksmen.

I too would like to know how to make tables.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
(By the way Tatsunoshi knows everything about the Chibas.)


Nah-just something I aspire to. Just Kidding

But in this case, the Chiba fielded a unit comprised of 100 arqubusiers under the overall command of Ida Heizaburou against a joint Uesugi-Yuki force in the defence of Oyumi Castle. And kicked their ass handily. This is after the Chiba daimyo, Chiba Tanetomi, had allied with the Hojo (or more accurately become a Hojo vassal) and this battle was a result of one of Kenshin's forays into Hojo territory.

Ah, the glory days...



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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Udagawa quotes some letters, diaries, reports, etc. and then says:
p. 148 "So we see that Teppo-shu existed throughout the country. Rather than going to the trouble of explaining each one, I have made a simple table of "Teppo-shu in the Sengoku" centering around the period, region, and the lord."
So the date is that of the references. He seems to be sticking here to letters, diaries, and such. Like the reference to Ieyasu was from the "Ietada Diary." The content of the references is in the "Jikô" and they all seem to have the word "Teppo-shu". So he is concerned here about shû (units), not just individual marksmen.

I too would like to know how to make tables.


Yep, that seems to solve the mystery.
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Bethetsu wrote:
Udagawa quotes some letters, diaries, reports, etc. and then says:
p. 148 "So we see that Teppo-shu existed throughout the country. Rather than going to the trouble of explaining each one, I have made a simple table of "Teppo-shu in the Sengoku" centering around the period, region, and the lord."
So the date is that of the references. He seems to be sticking here to letters, diaries, and such. Like the reference to Ieyasu was from the "Ietada Diary." The content of the references is in the "Jikô" and they all seem to have the word "Teppo-shu". So he is concerned here about shû (units), not just individual marksmen.

I too would like to know how to make tables.


Yep, that seems to solve the mystery.


So it's just separate incidents, for what is written in several literature that he read.

Looking again on the book, he does wrote specifically on other daimyos,e.g Hojo from page 104 to 110, Takeda from page 138, and also for several 流 (schools)

Sorry my mistake here.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
So is 下忩 a variant rendering of Shimosa? Don't know that I've ever seen it used before. It's always been 下総 (or 総州 or 北総 for the province's 'other' names).
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
So is 下忩 a variant rendering of Shimosa? Don't know that I've ever seen it used before. It's always been 下総 (or 総州 or 北総 for the province's 'other' names).


I'd actually defer to you on this, given your expertise on a particular house in that area. But that would be my assumption.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
So is 下忩 a variant rendering of Shimosa? Don't know that I've ever seen it used before. It's always been 下総 (or 総州 or 北総 for the province's 'other' names).

Looking at the photo, Udagawa wrote 下総, so I think you are right it is not used for the province. It is a variant of 怱. (Don't worry, Wiranobu, everyone makes mistakes in inputting kanji. I just wonder how you managed to input such an unusual character.)
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:
So is 下忩 a variant rendering of Shimosa? Don't know that I've ever seen it used before. It's always been 下総 (or 総州 or 北総 for the province's 'other' names).

Looking at the photo, Udagawa wrote 下総, so I think you are right it is not used for the province. It is a variant of 怱. (Don't worry, Wiranobu, everyone makes mistakes in inputting kanji. I just wonder how you managed to input such an unusual character.)


Actually I use the windows built-in IME Pad to input them, the software could predict any kanji as long as you put the correct stroke order. Btw thanks, is that a compliment Cool
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The letter 忩 looks simplified Chinese.簡体字
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
The letter 忩 looks simplified Chinese.簡体字
As I said, according to Kojien and Kanjigen, 忩 is a Japanese variant (異体字) of 怱 or 悤 (not of 総). It is not a standard character in either form of Chinese. Chinese standard for 怱 seems to be 匆. So we have these characters with various interrelationships: 匆匇怱悤忩, meaning "in a rush" (isogu or awateru, with on-yomi sô).

When you say 忩 "looks" like simplified Chinese, I wonder it is a matter of the font. Perhaps since the character is not in your ordinary Japanese font, your browser uses the back-up font that it uses for all unusual kanji, whether simplified Chinese or unusual Japanese variants, and so you associate the font with simplified Chinese. There is nothing in the kanji itself to make it look simplified.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
When you say 忩 "looks" like simplified Chinese, I wonder it is a matter of the font. Perhaps since the character is not in your ordinary Japanese font, your browser uses the back-up font that it uses for all unusual kanji, whether simplified Chinese or unusual Japanese variants, and so you associate the font with simplified Chinese. There is nothing in the kanji itself to make it look simplified.


忩 is 総 without the 糸 radical. Removal of radicals in an effort to reduce strokes is a method of simplification, especially in Chinese, at least according to a friend who has been studying this for his master's thesis. It may not actually be a simplification, but I can certainly see the conclusion being drawn superficially.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

忩 is 総 without the 糸 radical. .

Maybe it looks like it, but it is not. It is the variant of a different kanji altogether.
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:

忩 is 総 without the 糸 radical. .

Maybe it looks like it, but it is not. It is the variant of a different kanji altogether.


Just like 細 without 糸 isn't equal to 田 Very Happy
and 始 without 女 isn't equal to 台Just Kidding

trying to make a corny joke btw
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:

忩 is 総 without the 糸 radical. .

Maybe it looks like it, but it is not. It is the variant of a different kanji altogether.


I understand that. I'm NOT saying it is derivative, I'm saying IT'S THE SAME STROKES, MINUS THE RADICAL ON THE LEFT. It's understandable that someone would draw the conclusion that it is derivative and simplified, incorrect or not, and you don't need to jump down their throat for it.

When you say

Quote:
There is nothing in the kanji itself to make it look simplified.


you are wrong. There is--the fact that it is similar to another character without the radical, which follows a standard method of simplification in Chinese. It's nothing in anyone's software. Pointing out the correction is one thing, implying that someone drawing a logical, but wrong, conclusion must have software issues for them to draw such a conclusion, implying anyone who reaches that conclusion couldn't have possibly done so in a reasonable manner, is a bit much.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
wiranobu wrote:

Just like 細 without 糸 isn't equal to 田 Very Happy
and 始 without 女 isn't equal to 台Just Kidding
Exactly. Though I assume you were intending to copy Udagawa and write 総.

We have come rather far from 鉄砲衆, but since you put this in the language forum, it is fair. Very Happy
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