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A Question About Meiji To Pacif War Loyalties in Japan

 
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Hou Zi Wang
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: A Question About Meiji To Pacif War Loyalties in Japan Reply with quote
Hello

I was wondering if any faction of signifigance of the Tokugawa regime regained power from The Imperialist prior to WWII?

If So, did they have a larger influence on the polices of the Japanese concerning the War?

I asked this question in the right place I hope

Xin
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This period is hardly my field, but I have never heard of a Tokugawa faction in the Meiji period. I doubt that there was any organized group that thought it was possible to bring the Tokugawa back to power.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Same here. By the post WWI era, the old factions had pretty much been left behind. The new ones were more politically and organizationally based than geographical-the most obvious being the army and navy, two factions constantly at odds with each other (with the army having a large core of former 'commoner families' and the navy having a core of former 'samurai families').
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Meiji government - and popular discourse - worked pretty damn hard to make the Tokugawa seem backwards, un-modern, anti-modern even. Remember that whole idea about the Edo period being like the "dark ages"? How Japan was held back from developing into a modern country? How it was closed off from the world?

I sincerely doubt that any pro-Tokugawa faction could have gained much traction during this time, with ideas like that being as prevalent as they were.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you that helps very much and so a follow up question...

Did many people who left due to the Restoration return after things calmed down to resume their lives or were those people that left always enemies of the new state?

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hou Zi Wang wrote:
Thank you that helps very much and so a follow up question...

Did many people who left due to the Restoration return after things calmed down to resume their lives or were those people that left always enemies of the new state?

X
I haven't heard of anyone who fled abroad because of the Restoration.

Edit: Many people did go abroad after the Tokugawa-period restrictions on foreign travel were lifted, but those were mostly for positive reasons as study or involvement in foreign trade, such as the silk trade.


Last edited by Bethetsu on Fri May 18, 2012 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Same here. By the post WWI era, the old factions had pretty much been left behind. The new ones were more politically and organizationally based than geographical-the most obvious being the army and navy, two factions constantly at odds with each other (with the army having a large core of former 'commoner families' and the navy having a core of former 'samurai families').


The Army had a whole lot of "Choshu" leadership, and the Navy had a lot of "Satsuma" leadership, so there was geographical connection, but that was more based on politics than anything else.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
The Army had a whole lot of "Choshu" leadership, and the Navy had a lot of "Satsuma" leadership, so there was geographical connection, but that was more based on politics than anything else.


Pre-WWI that was largely the case, but I was speaking of post WWI. The Choshu leadership faction in the army split in the 1920's and allowed many younger officers (largely from non-samurai families) to pretty much push them out of the way. When the army really began to ramp up and expand after 1931, they were firmly entrenched in the leadership positions. It is interesting that one of the prime players was Araki Sadao and he actually was from a minor branch of the Tokugawa, although this really had no effect on his philosophy. What I've always found more interesting was that as the 'old guard' of 'samurai leaders' was pushed out, that's when the army really began to push the bastardization of Bushido (which when you think of it was kind of a bastardization to begin with) on the troops and nation (symbolized by officers replacing their Western-style sabers with 'samurai swords').
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hou Zi Wang wrote:
Did many people who left due to the Restoration return after things calmed down to resume their lives or were those people that left always enemies of the new state?


Many, many former Shogunate supporters went on to have high-level careers during the Meiji period. The new Imperial government was surprisingly lenient towards them and was more concerned with using their skills, abilities, and talents to maximum effect. For example, most of the Hokkaido Republic's leaders were put into prison camps after the war, and their leader (Enomoto Takeaki) charged with high treason. But he was eventually pardoned and went on to become at various times Navy Minister, Minister of Communications, Minister of Agriculture, Minister of Education, and Foreign Minister. Most of the ex-Shogunate guys never made it to positions quite that high up (since the Satcho guys wanted those for themselves) but aside from the Tokugawa had no problems getting government posts if they were capable men.
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
The Army had a whole lot of "Choshu" leadership, and the Navy had a lot of "Satsuma" leadership, so there was geographical connection, but that was more based on politics than anything else.


Pre-WWI that was largely the case, but I was speaking of post WWI.


And since the original question said "Meiji through WWII", I assumed pre-WWI was included in that. Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
And since the original question said "Meiji through WWII", I assumed pre-WWI was included in that. Just Kidding


It is, but my post limited itself to "By the post WWI era..." Wink
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
And since the original question said "Meiji through WWII", I assumed pre-WWI was included in that. Just Kidding


It is, but my post limited itself to "By the post WWI era..." Wink


Well yes, but....oh fine. Razz
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank You so much, Your answers are very helpful, but... In California there was a colony called Wakamatsu that seems to be from the survivors of the battle at Aizu, I was wondering if this Matsudaira clan was exluded from these answers you have given because they fought so much against the imperialists?

Xin
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about Yamakawa brothers?
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hou Zi Wang wrote:
Thank You so much, Your answers are very helpful, but... In California there was a colony called Wakamatsu that seems to be from the survivors of the battle at Aizu, I was wondering if this Matsudaira clan was exluded from these answers you have given because they fought so much against the imperialists?

Xin


http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=4554&sid=a700f7e7c22305e2c9ec64e86ce06835

Thread about Wakamatsu.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hou Zi Wang wrote:
I was wondering if this Matsudaira clan was exluded from these answers you have given because they fought so much against the imperialists?


No-they were excluded because they left Japan of their own choice, not because they were exiled. And obviously, being in America they would not have had any impact whatsoever on the politics of Japan during the Meiji restoration.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shiba Goro of Aizu, the author of "I Remember Aizu" was able to enter the Army Cadet School and eventually become a colonel.
Also at the end of 1869 the domain was re-established in Aomori. It was certainly a very difficult place and inadequate to support the Aizu samurai, but it was an official domain until all domains were abolished in 1871/7. Many samurai apparently went back to Aizu then. About two hundred families stayed in Aomori. So, the twenty-some people who showed up in California in 1870 were only a tiny number.
The HP on the California group says that in the census, one young man was distinguished by having a surname, which suggests the others were not of samurai class and were unlikely to be political refugees.

Shiki, who are the Yamakawa brothers?
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamakawa_Hiroshi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamakawa_Kenjir%C5%8D
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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for the links, it seems there is a group of people that is going to purchase the Wakamatsu colony and restore it.

Xin
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