Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Sanjusangendo-Tadamori or Kiyomori?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Ancient Japan to Heian
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Sanjusangendo-Tadamori or Kiyomori? Reply with quote
We've been discussing the construction of Sanjusangendo Hall over at the SA Wiki. I thought I'd ask for a little input here (not to mention disturb the crickets). The central issue is whether Taira no Kiyomori built the hall for Go-Shirakawa in 1164 or his father Tadamori built it for Go-Toba in 1131.

The Heike Monogatari specifically gives his father Taira no Tadamori credit for having built the structure and filling it with '1001 images of Buddha'. Tadamori is generally known as having built Rengeō-in, the hall's 'official' name.

Here's the passage from the Heike (McCullough's translation):

"But Tadamori, during his term as Bizen Governor, built a Buddhist hall thirty-three bays long (sanjusangendo-Tatsu), enshrined therein a thousand and one holy images, and offered it in fulfillment of Retired Emperor Toba's vow to found a temple, the Tokujojuin. The dedication took place on the Thirteenth of the Third Month in the first year of Tensho (1131-Tatsu). Orders were issued to reward Tadamori with a province, and Tajima, which happened to be available, was given to him. The delighted Retired Emperor also granted him courtier privileges at the imperial palace. Tadamori set foot in the Courtier's Hall for the first time at the age of thirty-six."

The Enkyobon variant of the Heike greatly expands on the dedication and devotes several pages to the clerics and ceremonies that were held-and also of the craft groups Tadamori employed.

However, the guidebook sold at Sanjusangendo claims it was built at the request of Retired Emperor Go-Shirakawa and was completed in 1164. It doesn't mention Kiyomori at all. This seems to be pretty well accepted.

Since the Heike is a war tale and has been shown to be fictional at times, I'd lean toward the 1164 date. Since the Heike largely portrays Kiyomori as a lout, thug, and villain, that could also be a reason why they ascribed this to Tadamori-showing Kiyomori doing something positive and pious would be at odds with the flow of the narrative.

Any thoughts or further information would be appreciated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Honestly, my recollection was from visiting Sanjusangendo, itself, and that was that it was largely built (though perhaps rebuilt?) by Kiyomori as an act of Buddhist piety.

On the other hand, we've never known historical sites to have inaccurate information...

I'm looking for better resolution on this photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tatsushu/277245635/sizes/o/in/set-72157600770981868/

If Go-Shirakawa resided here and if it was known as the Hojuji-dono, then that leads me to wonder if there isn't some truth in both. Regretablly, I can't find a better resolution photo at this time.

I checked the English guidebook (probably the same as listed), and it confirms the same info--it was built in 1164 "at the demand of Emperor Goshirakawa" within the bounds of Hojuji-dono (Goshirakawa's palace complex). This is confirmed in 「図説平家物語」(ISBN4-309-76053-Cool. If McCullough's translation is the only place were we find that it says other than Kiyomori then, given the hatchet job he gets therein, I would be inclined to accept him as the one who ordered the construction.

-Josh

PS: Okay, now it is time for me to get back to what I was supposed to be doing today.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the input, Josh.

Just to clear something up, all of the versions of the Heike I've read have the Tadamori passage, not just McCullough's translation (it's the 'Night Attack' chapter, right after the famous 'Gion Shoja' opening). Of course, there are over 100 variants of the Heike, and the early versions were much shorter, so it's possible there may be a few that don't have it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I figured as much, but I wasn't sure where the passage was, precisely.

Re-reading the Zusetsu book, it looks as though Tadamori ordered the building of Tokuchoujuin (得長寿院) for Toba Tennou. Correlating this with Heike Monogatari, two possibilities come immediately to mind:

1) Tadamori built a 33-bay hall for Toba Tennou and this was copied by his son for Goshirakawa Tennou.

2) Tadamori's building project was confused with Kiyomori, and so the two were conflated into a single project, attributed to the elder Taira.


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sakura
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, a quick Japanese Google search found a number of sites like this saying that there was a different Sanjusangendo built by Tadamori as part of the Tokuchojuin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
First, note that "ken" is a measurement, about 1.8 m. now.
According to a Japanese book I have on Sanjuusangendô, Kiyomori's grandfather Masamori built a 11-gen building, Rengazô-in, for Shirokawa.
Kiyomori's father Tadamori built a 33-gen building, the Tokuchôjuin 得長寿院, for Toba to house 1000 images of Kannon.
Kiyomori build the 33-gen building Rengeô-in for Go-shirakawa to house 1001 images of Kannon (one upmanship?). It was started or planned in 1156, and dedicated in 1164.

So, just looking at Tatsu's quote from the Heike, there doesn't seem to be anything to keep it from referring to the Tokuchôjuin except for 1001 instead of 1000 Kannon. Could that have been a confusion with the later Rengeô-in?

In other words, Josh's no 2 seems generally correct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Possible quibble: Tokuchojuin would refer to the entire compound, would it not? The 33-bay building would be a specific building, just as the Sanjusangendo is one building at Rengeoin.

On "KEN" (間): The etymology appears to be "space", indicating the space between two standard pillars. Traditionally, the post and beam construction of Nara and Heian period buildings created square spaces, about 10' on a side, so one "KEN" is about 10'. As evidence: The 33 "KEN" of Sanjusangendo reach 390'. Even assuming about 20'~30' for the eaves, that's over 10' per bay. This matches the "jo" measurement, as per Tony's article on Shinden zukuri architecture.

According to J-Wiki, by Hideyoshi's time, 1 Ken was about 6.3 Shaku, and in the Meiji period it was standardized to 1 Ken = 6 Shaku.

-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks to everyone for their input. It does seem odd that the same family would build two halls of the same size on roughly the same grounds, both with 1001 (or 1000) Buddhas, and within a relatively short time frame. Perhaps Josh's theory that Tadamori's hall was damaged/destroyed and rebuilt for Go-Shirakawa by Kiyomori might explain things.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lordameth
Awa no Kami
Awa no Kami
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1821
Location: 南加州

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, everyone for taking the time to look into it and share some thoughts and insights.

I had created the SA Wiki article for the Sanjûsangendô based on a brief entry in a Global History of Architecture book - actually a really great book for a global survey, and containing a lot more on Japan and other non-Western cultures than I might have expected. A truly global treatment, even if it's not as good as a properly Japan-focused source. Anyway, that's where I got the original Kiyomori idea from, and checking the few books I happen to have available to me, didn't find anything about the construction of the building, either to confirm or deny anything about Kiyomori vs Tadamori... So, thanks again for everyone's responses, and especially to Tatsu for noticing the potential error in the first place and taking the initiative to say something about it.
_________________
My blog on Japanese art & history: http://chaari.wordpress.com

紫水晶殿 - The Amethyst Lord
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their input. It does seem odd that the same family would build two halls of the same size on roughly the same grounds, both with 1001 (or 1000) Buddhas, and within a relatively short time frame. Perhaps Josh's theory that Tadamori's hall was damaged/destroyed and rebuilt for Go-Shirakawa by Kiyomori might explain things.


I think you are misquoting... I don't recall suggesting that, exactly. I was thinking they were in different locations.

Do we know that Emperor Toba's Tokuchojuin was in the same position as Emperor Goshirakawa's compound? I rather thought that the first was probably built elsewhere, and is no longer extant. The fact that Sanjusangendo is extant is, itself, a bit against the odds (and even then, it has been rebuilt a few times). It may be that the two buildings are both the result of the popular symbolism of the time.

-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
I think you are misquoting...


Not so much. I just interpreted 'rebuilt' here as...well, rebuilding after an accident/disaster/fire. I wasn't thinking of it in the 'reproduced' sense.

JLBadgley wrote:
Honestly, my recollection was from visiting Sanjusangendo, itself, and that was that it was largely built (though perhaps rebuilt?) by Kiyomori as an act of Buddhist piety.



JLBadgley wrote:
Do we know that Emperor Toba's Tokuchojuin was in the same position as Emperor Goshirakawa's compound? I rather thought that the first was probably built elsewhere, and is no longer extant. The fact that Sanjusangendo is extant is, itself, a bit against the odds (and even then, it has been rebuilt a few times). It may be that the two buildings are both the result of the popular symbolism of the time.

-Josh


I haven't been able to locate the Tokuchojuin on any historical maps I have of Kyoto, and my regular sources haven't either. I'm under the impression that they were very close together and possibly on the same grounds since Tadamori is often linked to Rengeoin.

My wife called the temple today and basically they had no answer for her other than that the current Sanjusangendo hall was finished in 1164 for Go-Shirakawa by Kiyomori.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My book says Go-Shirakawa established his palace at the site of Hoojuji法住寺, which was a site that pleased him, and built Rengeooin there. So I doubt it was the same place as Toba's. I quoted from above that both three genations of emperors and three generations of Tairas built temples, but it doesn't say anything about the old ones being destroyed. Rather from the time of Shirakawa making Buddhas and temples flourished among the nobility. (The book is Kokuhoo Sanjuusangendoo published by the temple in 1972.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
I quoted from above that both three genations of emperors and three generations of Tairas built temples, but it doesn't say anything about the old ones being destroyed.


Yes, I'm leaning towards this. It seems to be the best explanation, even though there remain questions. However, when dealing with buildings over 800 years old, one presumes that will always be the case. It would be interesting to learn the fate of the other halls.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bethetsu
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1376
Location: Center of Musashi

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Bethetsu: three generations of emperors and three generations of Tairas built temples, but it doesn't say anything about the old ones being destroyed.

Tatsu: Yes, I'm leaning towards this. It seems to be the best explanation, even though there remain questions. However, when dealing with buildings over 800 years old, one presumes that will always be the case. It would be interesting to learn the fate of the other halls.

Sorry, what I meant was that the book did not say anything that implied that Rengezôin or Tokuchôjuin were gone by the time Rengeôin was built. I would presume the latter two are indeed gone by now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


How's this?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
How's this?


Yippee! Right On

Excellent! Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Ancient Japan to Heian All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group