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Census of Yamatai

 
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Jaak
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Census of Yamatai Reply with quote
The account can be consulted here:
http://www2.u-netsurf.ne.jp/~kojin/e-wajinden.html
Now, let´s check the data.

The countries listed with census and KNOWN borders (because islands):
Tsuikai:
Quote:
Tsuikai
(meaning of the Chinese letters: twin seas) (meaning of
the Japanese pronunciation: a harbor rock and a wide
rock) country. The primary officer is called Hiku (a
storehouse, namely a tall mountain), and the secondary
officer is Hinamori (a field and six woods).
The place they live is a solitary island and can be a
square of about 400 x 400 (nautical) li (4/10 day of
sailing). Its mountains are steep and forests deep. Their
roads are as if for the paths for animals like deers. There
are about 1,000 households, but not much good fields for
rice. They are self-sufficient by eating marine products,
but get rice from the markets of the north and the south
by boarding on ships.


and Itai:
Quote:
Itai (a tall rock) country. Its officer is
called again Hiku (a storehouse), and the secondary
officer is Hinamori (a field and six woods).
(The size of the country can be) Estimated as a square
with 300 x 300 (nautical) li (3/10 day of sailing). There
are many dense woods of bamboo and tree, and are about
3,000 houses. There are some rice fields being cultivated,
but it is not enough for them to eat that they have to get
rice from the markets of its south and north.


Now we reach countries with known censuses but unknown borders:
Matsuro - 4000 households
Ito - 1000 households
Na - 20 000 households
Humi - 1000 households.

So far, we are at 6 countries, 30 000 households.
Beyond, we get:
Quote:
If you head south, you will reach Towoma (ten tailing
mountains) Country. It takes 20 days of sailing. Its
officer is called Mimi (three waters), and the secondary
one is Miminari (three waters and seven woods).
There can be about 50,000 households.
If you go southward, you will arrive at Yamatai
(arrows, mountains, and a tall rock) Country, where
the queen stays as the capital. It takes 10 days by sailing,
but 1 month on foot. There are officers, who are called
Ikima (five-hill mountain), Mimashiwo (three
mountains and four tails), Mimakukuki (three
mountains, a wide storehouse and a hill), and
Nakatai (inside wide and a tall rock). There may
be about 70,000 households.


8 described countries.
And then:
Quote:
About the north of the Queen's Country, we could write
the numbers of households and the lis of roads. The rest
of the countries on the sides, however, are so far apart that
we cannot know them in detail.

The list is:
Quote:
There is Shima (an island mountain) Country next.
There is Shihakuki (eight storehouses and hills in the
back) Country next. There is Iya (five arrows) Country
next. There is Toki (a door and a hill) Country next.
There is Mina (water fields) Country next. There is
Kowokoto (five tailing children and a door) Country
next. There is Huko (two children) Country next. There
is Sana (three fields) Country next. There is Tsuiso
(between a harbor rock and Sona Country) Country
next. There is Sona (a narrow field) Country next.
There is Kowou (near five tails) Country next.
There is Kanasona (a wide field and a narrow field)
Country next. There is Ki (a hill) Country next. There is
Igo (five villages) Country next. There is Kina (a field
with hills) Country next. There is Yama (eight
mountains) Country next. There is Kiushi (an island
near a hill) Country next. There is Hari (eight woods)
Country next. There is Kii (between a hill and a rock)
Country next. There is Una (near Na Country) Country
next. There is Na (a field) Country next, which is the end
of the Queen's boundary.


I count 21 countries in the list. Combined with the 8 listed above, we are at 29 countries subject to Queen.
Quote:
There is Kuna (nine fields) Country in the south. A
man is made as its king, and there is an officer called
Kukochihiku (nine child lands and a hill). They do not
follow the Queen.

And so we reach a count of 30 countries.

Are 1000 households for Tsuikai and 3000 households for Ito plausible for early 3rd century?

How many koku were found in Tsuikai and Itai by the censuses of Toyotomi and Tokugawa?
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsushima's (Tsuikai) income was put at 100,000 koku in the Edo period-about 30,000 of this was actual production and the other 70,000 was based on their trade with Korea. This also counts the small portion of Hizen that Tsushima-Fuchu controlled, so just for the island it would have been a bit smaller. Iki (Itai) was valued at 10,000. Could they have supported 1,000/3,000 households (respectively)? I'm assuming you mean Itai even though you ask about Ito, since the 3,000 figure goes with Itai.

Obviously, both of these areas would have been poorer and produced less at the time of Yamatai (due both to smaller populations and tech that wasn't as advanced as the Edo periods). We also don't know what an average 'household' represents. A household could be an aged widow living by herself, or two dozen people from several generations. I think, though, at least in Tsushima's case (based on 1 koku 'feeding a person for one year', although that's somewhat abstracted), it could easily have supported 1,000 households at the time of Yamatai-obviously, the potential was there to support that many people (the island's population in the Edo period was far, far greater than that). Iki might be a bit doubtful-even at its Edo period level, its potential would be iffy for 3000 households-even then, it would have to average out at under 4 individuals per household. Still, I think it would be possible-just not as likely as Tsushima having 1000. It might even be possible that the Chinese mixed up the values for Tsushima and Iki, since the proportions of households equate directly to the reverse of the Edo period koku ratios (both at 3-1 for non-trading income). It would take a lot of detailed research and extrapolating data to say so with a great degree of certainty, though.
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Jaak
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At the time of Yamatai, both Tsuikai and Itai are expressly mentioned as getting rice from markets. Meaning that they must have had some other incomes to buy the rice with.

The population of Japan at the time of Toyotomi was something like 18 millions. It had increased through land reclamation. I have heard and estimate of 8 millions for Nara period. There are also mentions of significant land reclamation in Kofun and Asuka periods.

Could 3 million people by the end of Yayoi period in 3rd century be a plausible number?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Willy Wayne Farris, in a couple of books he's done on Japan's population, has a chart taken from another scholar's research that gives Japan's population in the Yayoi period as being around 600,000. This particular number seems to be pretty well accepted, and Farris states that it's more than likely from the early part of the Yayoi period (about 300 BC). The next number given on the charts is about 6,000,000 from (I think) around 700 AD. 3,000,000 for the third century doesn't seem like an out of line estimate, although of course that would be for the entire area we now think of as the Japanese islands and not just the Yamatai polity (whatever areas it might have been comprised of). The population was growing faster from 300-700 than it was from 300 BC to 300, so it's equally possible 3,000,000 might be a little high.

As far as incomes for Iki and Tsushima, remember that when the Tokugawa assigned koku value, it represented the gamut of earnings potential for a han, not just the rice yield-it just expressed that potential in terms of rice value. So obviously the koku values for the two islands would include fishing, crafting, woodcutting, farming, and as has already been mentioned, trade. So seeing as how the islands didn't have a lot of land suited for agriculture, it makes sense that they would use the income sources they had to trade for rice.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Willy Wayne Farris, in a couple of books he's done on Japan's population, has a chart taken from another scholar's research that gives Japan's population in the Yayoi period as being around 600,000. This particular number seems to be pretty well accepted, and Farris states that it's more than likely from the early part of the Yayoi period (about 300 BC). The next number given on the charts is about 6,000,000 from (I think) around 700 AD. 3,000,000 for the third century doesn't seem like an out of line estimate, although of course that would be for the entire area we now think of as the Japanese islands and not just the Yamatai polity (whatever areas it might have been comprised of). The population was growing faster from 300-700 than it was from 300 BC to 300, so it's equally possible 3,000,000 might be a little high.


Are there any signs that the population growth 300-700 was faster?

6 000 000 and 3 000 000 applied to the whole Japanese population - whether or not it included Hokkaido, Ryukyu or the Emishi lands which still were independent in 700.

We know that the 29 countries of the Queen were not just "Yamatai country" - she also ruled 28 others. We are given 70 000 households in Yamatai demesne itself, 80 000 in 7 describes subject countries and 21 unspecifically described subject countries.
Plus the independent Kuna. We are getting at 30, previously stated as the total count of countries in Wa. Was Kuna the 1 and only Wa country independent from the queen?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry for my absence.

Just a quick note -- the population figures are believed by many to be too high. For a good English source, see pages 254-255 in Kidder's Himiko and Japan's Elusive Chiefdom of Yamatai (2007). He recommends cutting the population figures by 1/10.
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