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Which Clans were present at siege of Kawagoe castle 1545

 
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Kagemusha
Togishi
Togishi
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Joined: 10 May 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Which Clans were present at siege of Kawagoe castle 1545 Reply with quote
Hi,
This is something i have been pondering here and then for ages. The numbers of the besieging alliance of Kanto Ashikaga, Yamanouchi and Ogigayatsu branches of Uesugi during the siege are are to put it simple huge.

In comparison the Hojo numbers seem quite right. Lets look at the opposing armies:

Hojo

4000 besieged in Kawagoe.

8000 strong relief force.

We know that by 1545 Hojo had quite good grip of Southern Musashi and i have entered into conclusion that the 3000 in Kawagoe were probably mostly local Musashi troops. 3000 men, akin to 100.000 koku give or take if we think on those terms.

If we look at the Hojo main army. We know that by 1545 Hojo effectively had the control of Sagami and Izu provinces. During Hideyoshis Taiko land survey, some 46 years later. Izu was surveyed at 69.832 koku and Sagami at 194.304 koku. Combined the should have had akin to 260.000 kokuish, so akin to 9000 men from those provinces and i have no doubt they could have taken all their men to Kawagoe, so 8000 seems quite plausible.

What we know from the Yamanouchi, Ogigayatsu and Ashikaga combination is that the Yamanouchi army seem to have raised mostly from Kozuke.
All the mentioned Yamanouchi vassals were from Kozuke and i doubt any Yamanouchi vassals from Echigo could have joined even if they had wanted to do so because of the internal situation of Echigo. During Taiko survey, Kozuke was valuated at 496.377 koku. So the Yamanouchi part of army could have been around 15 to 17 thousand strong.
If we assume that the Musashi based Ogigayatsu branch of Uesugi, pretty much garnered the support of all the rest of Musashi apart the 3000 with Hojo at Kawagoe. We can reduce 100.000 koku from the Taiko survey amount of 667.126 koku, totalling Ogigayatsu at around 557.000 koku. With these figures, the Ogigayatsu army could have totalled around: 19.000 men.
So, so far we have Yamanouchi at 17.000 and Ogigayatsu at 19.000 men. Combined 36.000 men. Sizeable force and definitely enough to besiege some 3000 Hojo at Kawagoe castle.

What puzzles me is the Ashikaga continent. I havent seen any real figures from it nor its composition. I know that the Koga kubo at this time had mostly rely on his authority to get anything done and Kanto Ashikaga did not had much direct resources. What they had, they had in Shimosa province and mostly in Southern part of that province. If we are extremely generous and count the income of the whole province for the Ashikaga continent. We come up with 393.255 koku, akin to 13.000 men.

So if we accept the following we have the alliance as following:

Yamanouchi Uesugi : 17.000 men
Ogigayatsu Uesugi : 19.000 men
Ashikaga : 13.000 men

total: 49.000 men

So we are almost at 50k men, which is a huge army. Now what is interesting. I have seen mentioned that Oda Masaharu from Southern Hitachi was present at siege of Kawagoe, which is not impossible at all, if we look at for example at Uesugi Kenshin´s siege of Odawara 1561, where there were present Clans like Satake and Oda from Hitachi. Utsunomiya, Sano, Nasu and Koyama from Shimotsuke and Satomi from Awa and Kazusa.
Could it be that the East Kanto clans were present en masse also at Kawagoe, so that the mystery of 80.000- 100.000 besieging force could be explained by that, apart from normal exaggeration for any historical battle?
I would be very interested to know if any of you have stumbled into any information concerning such possibility, or if you have a better knowledge of the composition of the Ashikaga force.

Thanks! bow
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