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Sekigahara Campaign--Discusion

 
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:17 am    Post subject: Sekigahara Campaign--Discusion Reply with quote
Wow! What a detailed list. http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=6062 It took a lot of work.

However as you mention making corrections and additions, I will mention a few you might want to make. But I thought it might be better to have discussion on a different thread.

The Hosokawa castle of Tanabe (mentioned twice) was the Tanabe in Tango, not that in Kii.

Kaga was a bit complicated, but there were at least two battles.
At the beginning the eighth month, Maeda Toshiie accompanied by his younger brother Toshimasa, who ruled Noto, attacked and destroyed Daishôji, and Yamaguchi Munenaka killed himself. So I think Yamaguchi held the castle against, not for Toshimasa as you said.

Niwa Nagashige of Komatsu attacked the Maeda army on its return from Daishôji at Asai Nawate and killed many men.

However, after that Maeda Toshimasa refused to go out again with his brother to battle and was considered to have decided against Ieyasu, so afterwards Ieyasu gave Noto to Toshinaga.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu

Thank you for the input. I will include your information in the updates I will be doing. I have a few quick wins I am currently working on then it will be a case of working through my family files and adding / checking data name by name. I am hoping then I can add a few illustrations from some of the battle screens to break up the monotony of the long lists. I have already noted I have missed the skirmish the day before Sekigahara, the siege of Gifu castle, the siege of Shiroishi, the siege of Minakuchi and a few more of Naoe Kanetsugu's senior retainers - all of which will be corrected as I do the edits
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Sekigahara Campaign--Discusion Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:

Kaga was a bit complicated, but there were at least two battles.
At the beginning the eighth month, Maeda Toshiie accompanied by his younger brother Toshimasa, who ruled Noto, attacked and destroyed Daishôji, and Yamaguchi Munenaka killed himself. So I think Yamaguchi held the castle against, not for Toshimasa as you said.

Niwa Nagashige of Komatsu attacked the Maeda army on its return from Daishôji at Asai Nawate and killed many men.

However, after that Maeda Toshimasa refused to go out again with his brother to battle and was considered to have decided against Ieyasu, so afterwards Ieyasu gave Noto to Toshinaga.



Betehtsu I must admit this does not tally with my data and would be interested in the source.
1. Maeda Toshiie was the father not brother of Toshimasa, and Toshiie died in 1599
2. Toshinaga was the one siding with the Eastern Alliance and he carried out actions to thwart some of the threat from the Uesugi to the Eastern Alliance
3 Niwa Nagashige was siding with the Western Alliance and would therefore have been unlikely to attack Toshimasa who was also Western aligned but very feasibly would attack Toshinaga
4. Toshinaga and Toshimasa shared their late father's domain and Toshinaga was persuaded to the Eastern course by Hosokawa Tadaoki, Toshinaga received it all post Sekigahara making him the 2nd richest Daimyô in Japan
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am very sorry. "Toshiie" in my post was a slip of the pen (actually a slip of the mind) for "Toshinaga." So Toshinaga, along with Toshimasa, attacked Daishoji, and then was attacked by Niwa.

Toshimasa only after that decided not to go out against the western army because of his family in Osaka.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu - No apologies required all discussion is good discussion if done with the right reasons

I think we are getting closer - I have now found Yamaguchi Munenaga (山口 宗永(やまぐち むねなが) but once again Google translate makes for no further understanding

I think this paragraph explains it -
慶長5年(1600年)の関ヶ原の戦いでは、宗永は石田三成の西軍に与した。7月26日に東軍の加賀金沢の前田利長は約2万の大軍を率いて金沢城を出撃し、西軍の丹羽長重の拠る小松城を攻撃するかに見えたが、急遽これを避けて8月1日に加賀松山城に入城した。宗永はその危急を聞いて大聖寺城の防備を堅め、北ノ庄城の青木一矩や小松城の丹羽長重に救援依頼の使者を出したが間に合わなかった。翌2日、利長は九里九郎兵衛・村井久左衛門を使者として宗永に降伏を勧告したが、宗永は憤激しこれを拒否した
Keichō 5-nen (1600-nen) no sekigaharanotatakaide wa, sōei wa ishida mitsunari no seigun ni kumishita. 7 Tsuki 26-nichi ni tōgun no kagakanazawa no maeda toshinaga wa yaku 2 man no taigun o hikiite Kanazawa shiro o shutsugeki shi, seigun no niwa nagashige no yoru Komatsu shiro o kōgeki suru ka ni mietaga, kyūkyo kore o sakete 8 tsuki 1-nichi ni Kaga Matsuyama-jō ni nyūjō shita. Sōei wa sono kikyū o kii te Daishōji-jō no bōbi o katame, kitanoshōjō no aoki kazunori ya Komatsu shiro no niwa nagashige ni kyūen irai no shisha o dashitaga maniawanakatta. Yoku 2-nichi, Toshinaga wa 九里九郎兵衛 Murai Kyūzaemon o shisha to shite sōei ni kōfuku o kankoku shitaga, sōei wa fungeki shi kore o kyohi shita

It appears Maeda Toshinaga took the castle but it appears Yamaguchi may have been allied with The Akai or Niwa not Maeda Toshimasa, he seems to have been holding the castle for the Ishida alliance. My latest take is Toshinaga raided south against the Tanba at Asai and as part of that raid took Daishôji, on the way back he was attacked by Niwa Nagashige. I presume (hope) you can make some sense of it
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
First, the places, north to southwest are Kanazawa, Komatsu, Daishoji and Kitanosho (Fukui city) .Try finding them on a map.

An slightly abbreviated translation of what you wrote:
.In 1600 Munenaga sided with the western army. On 7/26 Maeda Toshinaga, who sided with the east, lead an army of about 20,000 men out of Kanazawa. It appeared (to Munenaga) that they were going to attack Niwa Nagashige's Komatsu Castle, but they suddenly went around it and on 8/1 entered Kaga Matsuyama Castle. Munenaga hearing of the danger strengthened the defenses of Daishoji and sent messengers asking for aid to Aoki Kazunaori of Kitanosho and Niwa Nagashige of Komatsu, but it was too late. On the 2nd, Toshinaga sent messengers to Munenaga counseling his surrender, but Munenaga angrily refused.

Comments:
Toshinaga had debated whether to attack first Komatsu or Daishoji, but it was decided that Komatsu would be difficult, so they went to Daishoji.

7/26 (as well as the other dates) here means the 26th of the 7th month by the Japanese calendar, NOT July 26. If you are going to have a chronology you have to be sure which calendar you and your sources are using or you will have a great mess. Normally Japanese sources for Japanese material use 7月26日 etc. to mean the Japanese date unless stated otherwise. But a problem is that one can find 7月26日 by the Japanese calendar translated as "July 26." Especially on the internet you have to be careful. And then of course if it is the western date the conversion may have been done wrong. I think one should stick to Japanese dates, putting western ones in parentheses if desirable. (etc., etc........)

"Toshinaga raided south against the Tanba at Asai and as part of that raid took Daishôji, on the way back he was attacked by Niwa Nagashige. "
That seems muddled. I think Tanba must be a mistake for Niwa 丹羽. Asai comes in because Niwa attacked the Maeda at Asai Nawate on 8/8 as they were returning from Daishoji.


"Yamaguchi ... seems to have been holding the castle for the Ishida alliance."

That seems like a strange way of putting it. It was Yamaguchi's castle, and he decided to ally with Ishida, and he thought or knew Aoki of Kitanosho (is that what you mean by Akai?) and Niwa also would. This east/west alliance was not a long-standing polarization, but a sudden matter with people in all kinds of relationships.

That is very good romanization, only a few mistakes, but wrong in the most elementary word! 月 in 7月 is 7 gatsu, the 7th month, not 7 tsuki. Also, 九里九郎兵衛 is probably Kuri Kurôbei.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu

Thanks again
To just cite a few of my sources -

Tony Bryant - Sekigahara 1600
p36 "...Tokugawa allies Môgami Yoshiakira and Date Masamune immediately counter-attacked. Maeda Toshinaga would have joined as well, but he was suddenly preoccupied with a war against his brother and others who supported the loyalists"
p80 (Chronology) - "7 September - Maeda Toshinaga (for the East) attacks his own brother, Toshimasa, and lays siege to Daishôji Castle. The garrison commander, Yamaguchi Munenaga, commits suicide"
p18 - 19 Map showing the Alliances shows both Tanba Nagashige and Yamaguchi Munenaga holding lands in Echizen (64 and 65 on the map). Tanba's lands actually border The Maeda domains and Yamaguchi's are the next one south-west

Samurai Archives Samuari-wiki for Maeda Toshinaga
"Toshinaga shared the Maeda domain (Etchû, Kaga, and Noto) with his brother Toshimasa. Hosokawa Tadaoki convinced Toshinaga to support Tokugawa Ieyasu in 1600, although Toshimasa opted to side with Ishida Mitsunari. During the Sekigahara Campaign Toshinaga assisted in the containment of Uesugi Kagekatsu while preventing his brother from making any real contribution to the 'western' cause. In addition, he defeated Tanba Nagashige at Asai"

A combination of these was my original source - the wording on the p80 source led me to assume Yamaguchi was associated with Toshimasa


From your very useful translation it appears Toshinaga travelled down the coast with a view of taking "enemy" castles in the direction of Echizen. Komatsu would have been a logical target but he by-passes that and attacks Daishôji which is very close to the Echizen border I believe. Yamaguchi Munenaga holds Daishôji and seeks help from Niwa Nagashige and Aoki Kazunori. The castle falls before help arrives, Munenaga kills himself and Toshinaga decides prudence is advised and starts pulling back to his own lands, at Asai Nawate near Komatsu he is engaged by Niwa Nagashige (and others). Toshinaga suffers losses but reaches his own lands and safety


I presume the main question is could the Samuari wiki statement regarding Tanba Nagashige at Asai be a mistake that should read Niwa Nagashige at Asai Nawate. However given the closeness of Tanba Nagashige to all this he could have been actually involved......but!!!!! - The map in Sekigahara 1600 has no entry for Niwa Nagashige who held Komatsu with a 100000 income at all but has a largish area for Tanba Nagashige for whom I can find no other references than those above and sits on the map about where Niwa should be (I think). I am beginning to get suspicious!! Anyone who can clarify this issue would be a star

Akai was an error on my part with my aged and rapidly declining brain cells merging Aoki and Asai, too many docsuments open and being a man I cannot multi-task
Holding the castle for the western alliance was not saying it wasn't his castle but just a shorthand way of saying I place him in the western camp
The romanization is Google Translates not mine - I have to try and make some sense of the actual rubbish that appears in the English box - I can read no Japanese. The only bits I use in the romanization tends to be the names translated from kanji
Thanks for the warning on dates but as all the page on any japanese language site is meaningless to me I expect I will continue to make errors - feel free to continue correcting me.

Phil
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do not have Tony Bryant's book, but I can guess what happened.
marder wrote:
I presume the main question is could the Samuari wiki statement regarding Tanba Nagashige at Asai be a mistake that should read Niwa Nagashige at Asai Nawate. However given the closeness of Tanba Nagashige to all this he could have been actually involved......but!!!!! - The map in Sekigahara 1600 has no entry for Niwa Nagashige who held Komatsu with a 100000 income at all but has a largish area for Tanba Nagashige for whom I can find no other references than those above and sits on the map about where Niwa should be (I think). I am beginning to get suspicious!! Anyone who can clarify this issue would be a star
The solution is this: Tanba Nageshige does not exist. Tony misread 丹羽 "Niwa" as "Tanba," an extremely natural mistake as it is a possible reading. So just change his Tanba Nageshige to Niwa Nagashige. The Wiki mention of Tanba is probably following Tony's book.
Quote:
p18 - 19 Map showing the Alliances shows both Tanba Nagashige and Yamaguchi Munenaga holding lands in Echizen (64 and 65 on the map). Tanba's lands actually border The Maeda domains and Yamaguchi's are the next one south-west
"Echizen" here I suppose is a slip of the pen for Kaga.
Quote:
7 September - Maeda Toshinaga (for the East) attacks his own brother, Toshimasa, and lays siege to Daishôji Castle.
I think this is confusion, and like I mentioned before, Toshimasa participated with Toshinaga in the campaign against Daishoji and did not separate till afterwards. Besides, since Toshimasa's lands were in Noto, how could Toshinaga have attacked him by going south? So it is a complicated chronology and the above statement is a natural mistake if you don't check to details.

By the way, Tony used the western calendar in his book. http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?p=66560&highlight=Sekigahara#66560
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