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Oda Nobunaga Redux
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Tornadoes28
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Imagawa were celebrating and partying and getting drunk probably. That probably had more to do with it than the rain.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Speaking of Nobunaga, the latest episode of the podcast looks at what separated Nobunaga from his contemporaries (aside from the massive body count). We don't really get into Okehazama specifically, though.

http://samuraipodcast.com/ep79-nobunaga-s-ambition
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice touch with the closing music for the Nobunaga episode. like
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Indeed, Tatsunoshi-sama, very nice touch. Each time I hear that Midi my heart melts. Just Kidding

I don't agree though with the assessment that Nobunaga was such a mysterious black box, a free electron that wanted to shatter any Japanese tradition that stood in his way. I've always felt when I read about Nobunaga that he saw politics in simplistic terms, as a sum-zero game in which either he wins totally in crushing his enemies, or else risks losing it all. And indeed, Nobunaga's whole success was about luck and overwhelming the odds which convinced a lot of his retainers that his "rule" was better for their interest than his death - until Mitsuhide decided otherwise.

Something that marks me when I read on him, is how much fear and uncertainty was a huge part of his management doctrine for his vassal band, which might have been a mistake on the long-term given his Owari-Mino power base was and remained small throughout his reign as warlord. He had, in truth, very few retainers he could totally put his trust in; even Hideyoshi came close at least one to lose his head due to Nobunaga's overwhelming distrust of those who worked under him. Nobunaga's hold on his "domain" was tenuous and not very secure; most of his holdings were either tozama retainers or retainers of his former enemies that were spared and swallowed into the Oda vassal structure. Those's loyalty proved numerous times to be rather shaky, and Honnoji prove the ultimate occurence of this lack of mutual trust and deep loyalty between Nobunaga and his vassal band. Even inside his smaller Owari-Mino vassal band there were elements he would have certainly gotten rid of when their usefulness would have passed. One of the what-ifs I think would be totally possible, for instance, is that had Nobunaga survived over 1582 Shibata Katsuie would have been a victim of one of a purge sooner or later when Nobunaga felt he had no need to spare him. Nobunaga never forgot nor ever forgave, so it strikes me as the type to purge good or experienced retainers that were either becoming a threat to him or that proving "failures" in his mind, whether it was true or not.

To my sense Nobunaga was akind to a man like Stalin, in other words a charismatic type of leader (in Max Weber's sense, i.e. a leadership built on the personal characteristics and the luck of a single individual) that believed in cutting the gordian knot, so to speak: The best way to solve a problem is to ruthlessly get rid of the problem itself, then move on to the next problem. Retrainers for him were not human beings to use within their best abilities, but tools to be used, milked, and discarded when useless. And I am fairly certain that this was the read a lot of his vassals had on him, even before he got rid of Sakuma Nobumori. That fosters the self-interest to be efficient to survive, but does not build the emotional, personal bond that constitutes the basis of feudal loyalty between an overlord and his vassal.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found a gem on YouTube last week. There was a special documentary on the Battle of Okehazama that was aired in November of 2000. Matsudaira Sadatomo is the host and Owada Tetsuo makes an appearance as a guest.

http://otsuke.blogspot.com/2014/04/2000-okehazama-documentary.html

This episode of Rekishi ga Ugoita covers a lot on Nobunaga's use of intelligence. I own a copy of the 2007 special which covers a little more on Imagawa Yoshimoto.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rekishijin Magazine has a new issue out on Nobunaga. "Nobunaga no Nazo"

http://www.rekishijin.jp/newmagazine201406/

Owada Tetsuo, Taniguchi Katsuhiro, Kirino Sakujin, Togawa Jun, and others contributed in this recent issue. The magazine covers castles, hobbies, Honnoji, Family line, his charisma, and women
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a Nobunaga letter written around 1557 that is being displayed at a museum in Nagoya.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/chubu/news/20140614-OYTNT50046.html
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Rekishijin Magazine has a new issue out on Nobunaga. "Nobunaga no Nazo"

http://www.rekishijin.jp/newmagazine201406/

Owada Tetsuo, Taniguchi Katsuhiro, Kirino Sakujin, Togawa Jun, and others contributed in this recent issue. The magazine covers castles, hobbies, Honnoji, Family line, his charisma, and women


So, is this thing for sale yet? How do I buy it if it is? I can't navigate the site for the life of me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
owari no utsuke wrote:
Rekishijin Magazine has a new issue out on Nobunaga. "Nobunaga no Nazo"

http://www.rekishijin.jp/newmagazine201406/

Owada Tetsuo, Taniguchi Katsuhiro, Kirino Sakujin, Togawa Jun, and others contributed in this recent issue. The magazine covers castles, hobbies, Honnoji, Family line, his charisma, and women


So, is this thing for sale yet? How do I buy it if it is? I can't navigate the site for the life of me.


Yep.

And yep.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
hashiba_hideyoshi wrote:
owari no utsuke wrote:
Rekishijin Magazine has a new issue out on Nobunaga. "Nobunaga no Nazo"

http://www.rekishijin.jp/newmagazine201406/

Owada Tetsuo, Taniguchi Katsuhiro, Kirino Sakujin, Togawa Jun, and others contributed in this recent issue. The magazine covers castles, hobbies, Honnoji, Family line, his charisma, and women


So, is this thing for sale yet? How do I buy it if it is? I can't navigate the site for the life of me.


Yep.

And yep.


Oooh, goodie!! Can't read the thing for the life of me, but hey. Another incentive to learn.
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:51 am    Post subject: A need to protect Chosokabe Motochika made Mitsuhide do it? Reply with quote
Well, well, well. A Shikoku motive for Mitsuhide's treachery? http://mainichi.jp/english/english/newsselect/news/20140624p2a00m0na016000c.html
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: A need to protect Chosokabe Motochika made Mitsuhide do Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Well, well, well. A Shikoku motive for Mitsuhide's treachery? http://mainichi.jp/english/english/newsselect/news/20140624p2a00m0na016000c.html


Told you the "lone gunman" theory didn't make logical sense! Just Kidding

I feel like now that we're on page 10 this has turned into Nobunaga Redux Redux.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or Nobunaga acid reflux?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: A need to protect Chosokabe Motochika made Mitsuhide do Reply with quote
Part of the article reads like this:
Quote:
The letters show how Oda and Chosokabe confronted each other and the former extracted concessions over control of the Shikoku region. Because one of Akechi's senior retainers [Saito Toshimitsu] was allied by marriage to the Chosokabe clan, an expert speculates that the Honnoji Incident was aimed at "protecting Chosokabe from an Oda invasion of Shikoku."

Chosokabe stated in a letter to Saito dated on May 21, 1582 -- shortly before the Honnoji Incident -- that he had retreated from part of Awa. Chosokabe also wrote in the letter that he would abide by Oda's orders once the latter returned from the invasion of Koshu (present-day Yamanashi Prefecture) -- hinting that Chosokabe had softened his stance.


I doubt that this letter had any affect on Mitsuhide, though, because I think he never got it.
The letter was found in the papers of the Ishigai Mitsumasa, the intermediary between Chosokabe and Saito. It was dated 5/21 (a Japanese news article says 5月21日, so the Japanese calendar), and nine days later on 6/1 Mitsuhide left Kameyama for Kyoto, so he probably never had a chance to deliver it.

kitsuno wrote:
Told you the "lone gunman" theory didn't make logical sense! Just Kidding

But the letter certainly does not show a conspiracy; rather it shows that on 5/21 Chosakabe had no thought of one.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: A need to protect Chosokabe Motochika made Mitsuhide do Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
But the letter certainly does not show a conspiracy; rather it shows that on 5/21 Chosakabe had no thought of one.


I tend to agree. If he was plotting with Mitsuhide, why was he agreeing to Nobunaga's demands? It's hardly a smoking gun. To me, it merely shows that there's a possibility that contact between Chosokabe and Mitsuhide had some sort of influence on the latter's actions. Perhaps Chosokabe agreed to the demands to lull Nobunaga into a sense of security, but that's taking it a step or three farther than I'd want to go simply on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree, the idea that him claiming to submit to Nobunaga was supposed to be part of a plot to lull him into a false sense of security is a stretch to say the least, and the idea that Chosokabe sadly submitting to Nobunaga irked Mitsuhide so much he decided to rebel seems even more of a stretch. I was just making a joke.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
Or Nobunaga acid reflux?


Interesting theory on Nobunaga's acid reflux Obenjo. Please expand on this idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: I'm just gonna leave this here... Reply with quote
I'm just gonna leave this here...

Nobunaga's Actual Birthplace Finally Revealed! Confused
https://www.facebook.com/SamuraiHistoryCultureJapan/posts/726402420771619


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Oda clan stops naming "Nobu" to sons.
http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/9473172/

The 18th head of the clan Mr Oda Nobutaka didn't name his 2 sons "Nobu", broke 400 years tradition.

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名字が織田で、名前に信がついていれば、信長の血筋だということは察しがついてしまうでしょう。
僕は子どものころから、それがたまらなく嫌でした。
"People easily detect I have the Oda bloodline because of the name. I hated it."
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Documents were found recently regarding Nobunaga and Hideyoshi. Nobunaga's letter to Kuki Yoshitaka had the black Tenka Fubu stamped. The documents are being planned to be displayed to public in the near future.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201412090039
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