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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Biographical information Reply with quote
If we could use this thread to post any biographical facts (full name, birth, death, other names, titles, place of birth and death, etc.) for any of the 47, or anyone else even remotely involved, I can start slowly building wiki articles. So as you come across a peice of factual information, post it here with the source. The subjective analysis of the people can be added to the articles once the facts have been entered.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Biographical information Reply with quote
Asano Naganori (1667-1701)-Takumi no kami-Lord of junior branch of the Asano which governed Ako (Harima-55,000 koku)
Kira Yoshinaka (?-1703)-Kozuke no suke-Tokugawa hatamoto (stipend of 4,200 koku)
Oishi Yoshio (more popularly known as Kuranosuke) (1659-1703)
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Wave Tossed
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fuwa Kazuemon

The details I've listed are from several sources that I've found: He was born in 1688. He was 34 years old on the day of the attack on Kira. He was born the son of Okano Jidayu but was adopted into another Ako samurai's family. According to most accounts I've read, Kazuemon was an expert swordsman.

Fuwa Kazuemon was banished from the Ako clan by Asano Naganori around 5-6 years before the incident between Asano and Kira. According to most accounts I've read, he was banished for grave-robbing i.e. digging up a body from a graveyard to test his sword.

And so Kazuemon lived those 5-6 years as a ronin. I do know that Shogunate laws prohibited a clan from hiring a ronin who had been discharged from his clan -- so Fuwa Kazuemon had no chance of obtaining a position with another daimyo. I haven't found a lot of evidence of what Kazuemon actually did during those years. He lived the typical life of an Edo-period ronin, an existence typically filled with hardship.

According to most accounts I've read, when Kazuemon heard the news of his former lord's death, he grabbed his armor and rushed to Ako, wanting to join his former colleagues in avenging his lord's death. He was rebuffed more than once by Oishi Kuranosuke, but he persisted and finally was allowed to join the band.

Also according to the accounts I've read, Kazuemon killed and wounded more of Kira's retainers during the raid than any other of the Ako ronin.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I noticed that in the new Samurai Wiki 47 Ronin entry, the year of the raid and Kira's death are given as 1702. My sources have them as 1703. I take it this is just another case of Japanese calendar vs Gregorian calendar? Seeing as how the event happened in 'December', I guess that's the case.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've put up the basics - I'm hoping that we can use the study group to add to these biographies as we go along. I'd like to get some references into these articles as well as (obviously) more info. I have a couple article sources here, hopefully I'll actually get a chance to read them.

Oishi Kuranosuke:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Oishi_Kuranosuke

Kira:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Kira_Yoshinaka

Asano Naganori:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Asano_Naganori

Remember, anyone can add to these articles, just add sources. And anyone can create new, related articles as well.
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Bethetsu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
I noticed that in the new Samurai Wiki 47 Ronin entry, the year of the raid and Kira's death are given as 1702. My sources have them as 1703. I take it this is just another case of Japanese calendar vs Gregorian calendar? Seeing as how the event happened in 'December', I guess that's the case.


Yes. The 12th month starts the first new moon after the winter solistice (Dec. 21-22 in Japan). The Nengo calc (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm) gives Genroku 15.12.14 as Jan. 30, 1703.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:
I noticed that in the new Samurai Wiki 47 Ronin entry, the year of the raid and Kira's death are given as 1702. My sources have them as 1703. I take it this is just another case of Japanese calendar vs Gregorian calendar? Seeing as how the event happened in 'December', I guess that's the case.


Yes. The 12th month starts the first new moon after the winter solistice (Dec. 21-22 in Japan). The Nengo calc (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/ geschichte-japans/nengo_calc.htm) gives Genroku 15.12.14 as Jan. 30, 1703.


Thanks. One day I'm going to have to sit down and really digest your samurai wiki article on date conversion. I still don't fully grasp everything involved in the conversions.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Will there be a category "47 ronin" or something?
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Will there be a category "47 ronin" or something?


I don't think that would really be worth it, since it is by its very nature limited to 47 or so entries, I'd say "Samurai" and "Edo Period" category. But we get around that 2 ways - 1. reference the fact that the person is one of the "47 Ronin" in the "data" section on the top of the article, and 2. Someone who knows the names of all 47 ronin should list them on the 47 ronin article - see the Shinsengumi article for example. That would preclude the need for a 47 ronin category.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:


Thanks. One day I'm going to have to sit down and really digest your samurai wiki article on date conversion. I still don't fully grasp everything involved in the conversions.


The article there is year dates (nengo, etc.) I am afraid the calendar one isn't written yet. It is pretty much in my head, but I keep getting sidetracked by things like this discussion group.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
Tatsunoshi wrote:


Thanks. One day I'm going to have to sit down and really digest your samurai wiki article on date conversion. I still don't fully grasp everything involved in the conversions.


The article there is year dates (nengo, etc.) I am afraid the calendar one isn't written yet. It is pretty much in my head, but I keep getting sidetracked by things like this discussion group.


I have the same problem. I've been working on entires for Edo & Himeji castles and they haven't seen much activity lately.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can anyone post a list of all 46/7/8 Ronin here so I can list them on the article?
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Wave Tossed
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Can anyone post a list of all 46/7/8 Ronin here so I can list them on the article?
Here is a list of most of them, including their ages (at the time of the attack), which I got off of the "swords of the 47 ronin" site:

OISHI KURANOSUKE YOSHIKATSU, age 45
YOSHIDA CHUZAEMON KANESUKE, age 64
HARA SOEMON MOTOTOKI, age 56
KATAOKA GENGOEMON TAKAFUSA, age 37
MASE KYUDAIU MASAAKI, age 63
ONODERA JYUNAI HIDEKAZU, age 61
HAZAMA KIHEI MITSUNOBU, age 65
ISOGAI JYUROZEMON MASAHISA, age 25
HORIBEI YAHYOE AKIZANE, age 77
CHIKAMATSU KANROKU YUKISHIGE, age 34
TOMIMORI SUKEEMON MASAYORI, age 34
SHIOTA MATANOJYO TAKANORI, age 35
HAYAMI TOZAEMON MITSUTAKA, age 42
AKABANE GENZO SHIGEKATA, age 35
OKUDA MAGODAIU SHIGEMORI, age 57
YADA GOROEMON SUKETAKA, age 29
OISHI SEZAEMON NOBUKIYO, age 29
OISHI CHIKARA YOSHIKANE, age 16
HORIBE YASUBEI TAKETSUNE, age 34
NAKAMURA KANSUKE MASATOKI, age ?
SUGANOYA HANNOJYO MASATOSHI, age 44
FUWA KAZUEMON MASATANE, age 34
KIMURA OKAUEMON SADAYUKI, age 46
OHIBA SABUROBYOE MITSUTADA, age 51
OKANO KINUEMON KANEHIDE, age 24
KAIGA YAZAEMON TOMONOBU, age 54
OTAKA GENGO TADAO, age 32
OKAJIMA YASOUEMON TSUNEKI, age 38
YOSHIDA SAWAUEMON KANESADA, age 29
TAKEBAYASHI TADAHICHI TAKASHIGE, age 32
KURAHASHI DENSUKE TAKEYUKI, age 34
HAZAMA SHINROKURO MITSUKAZE, age 24
MURAMATSU KIHEI HIDENAO, agae 62
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks! Although it looks like some of them used the archaic romanization system, so that might take a little time to figure out. Hopefully I'll be able to start adding these names soon.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:


OISHI KURANOSUKE YOSHIKATSU


Shouldn't this be "Yoshio"? This is the problem with Oda Nobuo/Nobukatsu - no one really knows how his name was pronounced -but I assume that this name is known. Yoshio or Yoshikatsu? I'm guessing it is: 雄
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
J-wikipedia says Yoshio/Yoshitaka.
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%A7%E7%9F%B3%E5%86%85%E8%94%B5%E5%8A%A9


google
"大石良雄 よしお" の検索結果 約 247 件
"大石良雄 よしたか" の検索結果 約 246 件
"大石良雄 よしかつ" の検索結果 約 7
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:

"大石良雄 よしお" の検索結果 約 247 件
"大石良雄 よしたか" の検索結果 約 246 件
"大石良雄 よしかつ" の検索結果 約 7


Interesting - You'd think that his name would be known. Also interesting, I didn't realize he had 4 kids.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a page for Chushingura.
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Chushingura&action=edit
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
There is a page for Chushingura.
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Chushingura&action=edit


Question
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I meant the page was ready for someone to edit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
I meant the page was ready for someone to edit.


Aha.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
Can anyone post a list of all 46/7/8 Ronin here so I can list them on the article?
Here is a list of most of them, including their ages (at the time of the attack), which I got off of the "swords of the 47 ronin" site:

OISHI KURANOSUKE YOSHIKATSU, age 45


The Kojien lists Oishi as 1659-1703. If that is correct, the "age 45" is his age in the Japanese system at the time of his death, not the time of the attack. (See http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Age_Calculation)
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