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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
So if that was Shimazu troops in the picture then it would be a possible distant relative of the Shimazu under Yoshihisa. A brach that had become retainers of the Uesugi. Am I understanding correctly?


Possibly, yes. It's hard to know without doing the backstory research. The Shimazu were in Satsuma since the Gempei War and before; potentially, the Kamakura bakufu granted a Shimazu family member a Shugo position in Eastern Japan, and that person settled there and kept the name. That's one possibility, and maybe something vaguely like that is the most likely scenario. I'd be really surprised if a Shimazu family member from Satsuma left in the mid-1500's to go fight with the Uesugi; it makes no sense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I'd be really surprised if a Shimazu family member from Satsuma left in the mid-1500's to go fight with the Uesugi; it makes no sense.


I was trying to think of how that would come about but I can't think of anything, seems unlikely I agree.

Where the Shimazu and Akizaki troops intermingled during that assault? Or is the Shimazu just watching from behind the Akizaki?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


I know you didn't necessarily mean to infer a connection, but wanted to make it clear for Templar. There are umpteen examples of the same mon used by different clans, and also of unrelated (or distantly related, separated by hundreds of years) clans having the same name. I find it safer to assume there isn't a connection unless you come across proof of one.


I think I should get a new avatar. That of an "8 foot samurai". Embarassed
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:


I know you didn't necessarily mean to infer a connection, but wanted to make it clear for Templar. There are umpteen examples of the same mon used by different clans, and also of unrelated (or distantly related, separated by hundreds of years) clans having the same name. I find it safer to assume there isn't a connection unless you come across proof of one.


I think I should get a new avatar. That of an "8 foot samurai". Embarassed


No worries. Wink You have been most helpful, and I understood that you meant 8 samurai on foot.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:

I think I should get a new avatar. That of an "8 foot samurai". Embarassed


Well, there's always 'Decapitator Adachi (SP?)' that Maeda Toshiie was pushed into battling by his wife Matsu (at least in the Toshiie To Matsu Taiga).
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:


Where the Shimazu and Akizaki troops intermingled during that assault? Or is the Shimazu just watching from behind the Akizaki?


In the illustration the Shimazu are charging alongside the Kakizaki.

There would be no intermingling of different contingents, otherwise you have confusion in the ranks.

To extend the line, different contingents would fight side by side. At 4th Kawanakajima, the Takeda tried to extend the line to envelop the Uesugi, different contingents placed side by side.

The Uesugi increased their depth to hit the Takeda lines like a battering ram. Two vanguard contingents side by side, with contingent after contingent following behind the two vanguard.

Heraldry being very important to coordinate the movements of various allied contingents. But confusion was always ever present in the fog of war. There were many examples of 'friendly fire'.


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Templar wrote:


Where the Shimazu and Akizaki troops intermingled during that assault? Or is the Shimazu just watching from behind the Akizaki?


In the illustration the Shimazu are charging alongside the Kakizaki.

There would be no intermingling of different contingents, otherwise you have confusion in the ranks.

To extend the line, different contingents would fight side by side. At 4th Kawanakajima, the Takeda tried to extend the line to envelop the Uesugi, different contingents placed side by side.

The Uesugi increased their depth to hit the Takeda lines like a battering ram. Two vanguard contingents side by side, with contingent after contingent following behind the two vanguard.


For clarification a contingent in this case would be roughly 20 horse and 250 foot soldiers?

or roughly 4 horse and 50 foot soldiers?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:


For clarification a contingent in this case would be roughly 20 horse and 250 foot soldiers?

or roughly 4 horse and 50 foot soldiers?


Some contingents had 20 horse/250 soldiers. Some had 4 horse/50 footsoldiers. Some had 120 horse/1500 footsoldiers.

No two contingents were exactly alike.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So a contingent would just be all the troops under a particular samurai commander?

So would Shingen or Kenshin have a "contingent" of troops under there direct command or would the entire army be their "contingent." I doubt it

Sorry if these questions are becoming tedious.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
So a contingent would just be all the troops under a particular samurai commander?

So would Shingen or Kenshin have a "contingent" of troops under there direct command or would the entire army be their "contingent." I doubt it

Sorry if these questions are becoming tedious.


Imagine Takeda Shingen taking the field with 24 separate contingents. Each one different in size and composition. The 24 contingents and Shingen's own make up the total Takeda army.

Now take one of the 24 contingents and break it down. This one contingent could be made up of only two smaller contingents similar to the composition of Kimata Morikatsu's hatamoto.

While another of the 24 contingents could be larger. Composed of up to 6 or more smaller contingents like Kimata Morikatsu's hatamoto.

There are no clear and solid rules to go by.

At Sekigahara two of Tokugawa Ieyasu's brilliant commanders led very disproportionate 'contingents'. Ii Naomasa had 3,600 men while Honda Tadakatsu had only 500.


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Templar wrote:
So a contingent would just be all the troops under a particular samurai commander?

So would Shingen or Kenshin have a "contingent" of troops under there direct command or would the entire army be their "contingent." I doubt it

Sorry if these questions are becoming tedious.


Imagine Takeda Shingen taking the field with 24 separate contingents. Each one different in size and composition. The 24 contingents and Shingen's own make up the total Takeda army.

Now take one of the 24 contingents and break it down. This one contingent could be made up of only two smaller contingents similar to the composition of Kimata Morikatsu's hatamoto.

While another of the 24 contingents could be larger. Composed of up to 6 or more smaller contingents like Kimata Morikatsu's hatamoto.

There are no clear and solid rules to go by.


Okay, I understand alot better now. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Army composition, heraldry, ...enough to turn you hair gray...I forgot. It has. Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Army composition, heraldry, ...enough to turn you hair gray...I forgot. It has. Crying or Very sad


At least you have hair... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:

Possibly, yes. It's hard to know without doing the backstory research. The Shimazu were in Satsuma since the Gempei War and before; potentially, the Kamakura bakufu granted a Shimazu family member a Shugo position in Eastern Japan, and that person settled there and kept the name. That's one possibility, and maybe something vaguely like that is the most likely scenario. I'd be really surprised if a Shimazu family member from Satsuma left in the mid-1500's to go fight with the Uesugi; it makes no sense.


The Shimazu actually started out in Shinano, having thrown in with Yoritomo during the Gempei war. Yoritomo gave Shimazu Tadahisa (who was using his father-in-law's family name of Koremune then) the domain of Shioda there in 1186. In 1196 Tadahisa went to Satsuma, conquered Hyuga and Osumi, and set up shop in Shimazu domain in Osumi (which he also picked up for his clan name). Probably the Shimazu in Uesugi's army were a small branch of the family left behind (that changed their name from Koremune to Shimazu at the same time Tadahisa did).

The Murakami family line that fought in the Uesugi army show up as being based in Yoshino defending the Southern dynasty in the 14th century, so it's possible they were another branch of the pirate Murakami. The couple of sources I looked at were pretty non-committal, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yep, see, knew it had to be something like that.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Any idea on who was in charge of the Shimazu under uesugi at the time?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Any idea on who was in charge of the Shimazu under uesugi at the time?


Shimazu Norihisa.

At the Winter Siege of Osaka castle, the Shimazu of Satsuma and the Uesugi were on the same side, fighting for Tokugawa Ieyasu. The Uesugi contingent of 5,000 men was led by Kagekatsu. The Shimazu contingent of 30,000 arrived too late to take part.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ah, sorry after rereading your post about the Akizaki it was there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wayne Ko's Takeda and Uesugi heraldry:

Takeda:

Uma-jirushi of 26 Takeda Shingen 'generals'. Smaller versions can be used to depict sashimono.
(Correction on color plate) Hara Toratane should be white mon on blue.

Some contingents had sashimono different from the uma-jirushi. Those I know with different sashimono:
Anayama - Black Takeda mon on blue.
Baba Nobuharu
Takeda Nobushige - White Takeda mon on black
Yamagata Masakage - Plain black
Yamamoto Kansuke
Ichijo Nobutatsu, as Shingen's brother - sashimono with Takeda mon.
(Missing)Obata Nobusada - sashimono below:



Uesugi:

Missing: Kenshin's great standard of large dark blue fan with red disc.
Sashimono: 2 lovebirds in bamboo, #3 on the bottom row.
Nakajo Fujikashi - Two banners are shown. The white design on red is personal banner. Nakajo sashimono is next to it of white 'yama' on black.
(Correction) Nagao Fujikage - Black triple tomoe on white.

Uesugi Kagekatsu:

Great standard: gold disc on blue and large light blue fan.
Lesser standard: white with character 'bi'.
Sashimono: plain red.

Naoe Kanetsugu who supported Uesugi Kagekatsu:
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Once again you have exceded my expectaions.

Quote:
Yamagata Masakage - Plain black


That seems easy enough to paint Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While we're on the subject - can someone check the Matsunaga Kamon:

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Matsunaga_clan

Just got a post on the SamuraiWiki Editor's group that this may be wrong. I don't have a reliable way to check from here.

Thanks!

I did find this:
http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/akamatu.html

So is the one on the wiki a mistake?


Last edited by kitsuno on Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject - can someone check the Matsunaga Kamon:

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Matsunaga_clan

Just got a post on the SamuraiWiki Editor's group (presumably from a Japanese person based on the grammar) that this may be wrong. I don't have a reliable way to check from here.

Thanks!

I did find this:
http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/akamatu.html

So is the one on the wiki a mistake?


http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/matunaga.html

That's the Akamatsu clan you posted a link to. I posted the Matsunaga clan from the same website (great one, by the way, have done a lot of research there). It shows the same kamon that you do.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
While we're on the subject - can someone check the Matsunaga Kamon:

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Matsunaga_clan

Just got a post on the SamuraiWiki Editor's group (presumably from a Japanese person based on the grammar) that this may be wrong. I don't have a reliable way to check from here.

Thanks!

I did find this:
http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/akamatu.html

So is the one on the wiki a mistake?


http://www2.harimaya.com/sengoku/html/matunaga.html

That's the Akamatsu clan you posted a link to. I posted the Matsunaga clan from the same website (great one, by the way, have done a lot of research there). It shows the same kamon that you do.


Oops, had the right google search, didn't pay close enough attention to the link I copied.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anyone have any information on the Asai and Asakura when they were fighting Oda from 1570-1573? I haven't been having any luck. I am looking for information like with the Takeda and uesugi earlier in the post.

Also what kind of commander was Asai? I have read that Asakura left military matters in the hands of his family member (brother I think) but other than having a large gun supply I haven't found much else about them. Anything that might be useful information I could use. Thanks in advance.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Anyone have any information on the Asai and Asakura when they were fighting Oda from 1570-1573? I haven't been having any luck. I am looking for information like with the Takeda and uesugi earlier in the post.

Also what kind of commander was Asai? I have read that Asakura left military matters in the hands of his family member (brother I think) but other than having a large gun supply I haven't found much else about them. Anything that might be useful information I could use. Thanks in advance.


Go here for a past thread on Asai and Asakura heraldry. Yoshitoshi did a very nice color plate of heraldry.
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=91&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Gakken illustration showing the Battle of Anegawa with Asakura troops going into the river.
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