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kryo
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Go here for a past thread on Asai and Asakura heraldry. Yoshitoshi did a very nice color plate of heraldry.
http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=91&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


Wow, I love his ashigaru illustration, thanks for pointing that thread out Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
I think I should get a new avatar. That of an "8 foot samurai". Embarassed


Emmanuel, if you consider your english as bad,
thinking at mine I've to stop posting here... Very Happy
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Templar
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Now that you have brought it up, I remember seeing that thread before but I forgot about it. Rolling Eyes Thanks for the help.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found a site that has a bunch of banners from various Samurai grouped by the province they are from. Some of them have dates of birth and dates of death others have unknown by their names. Regardless, alot of them I have never heard of before and they aren't in the biographical data from the history page either.

For example.

Ban Naoyuki
1567-1615
From Awaji


Wakisaka Yasumoto
dates of birth and death unknown
From Awaji


Anyway, I am not sure what to make of them. I am wary of internet sources that I find blind and some of the banners for the known samurai look like nothing I have seen before.

Oda Nobunaga
1534-1582
From Owari


I can honestly say I have never seen that particular Oda banner before.

Also never seen this one.

Takeda Shingen
1521-1573
From kai


They are nice, but are they actual banners or just someone's interpretation? I doubt it

The site in question:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/jp-kuni.html
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kryo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:

I can honestly say I have never seen that particular Oda banner before.


Actually that one's already on S-A (at least, without the little flag on top).
http://www.samurai-archives.com/mon2.html
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, now that I look both of them are. Maybe it is on the up and up. The site certainly has some obscure samurai.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ban Naoyuki. In Turnbull's 'Osaka 1615' this banner is shown as a sashimono of Ban Naotsugu bearing his name. He led the night attack across the Honmachi bridge, Jan. 16, 1615. His samurai have plain red sashimono. Also listed as Ban Dan'emon, 'brave general of the night attack'. Killed at the battle of Kashii 1615.

Wakisaka Yasumoto of Awaji. Wakizaka Yasuharu of Awaji Island (1554-1626), a commander of the invasion fleet during the invasion of Korea. His banners had two white rings on red. Great standard red flag with the two rings in white. Samurai sashimono red flag with two rings in white. Ashigaru sashimono two small red flags with the two rings in white.

Above Wakizaka ships with the two ring mon on sails from Korean TV series on Hideyoshi's Korean Invasion.

Oda Nobunaga's personal standard of three Japanese coins in black on gold. Appears with Nobunaga in many color plates illustrating him. It appears on the bookcover of Osprey's 'Samurai Heraldry'.

Nobunaga reenactor. It can barely be seen, but it's in the very center of the photo behind the actor.


Takeda Shingen. The color may be off. It should be red. The bottom of the banner can be seen at the top of this color plates of Takeda heraldry:


I know the site. They do have mistakes. Last time I checked, Chosokabe has Yamauchi banner, Yamauchi has Chosokabe banner.


Last edited by evalerio on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, so the banners appear to be actual representations then right? It also looks like that those on that site are later Daimyo then I am currently looking for.

Also, was Ban Naoyuki and Ban Naotsugu the same person?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Thanks, so the banners appear to be actual representations then right? It also looks like that those on that site are later Daimyo then I am currently looking for.

Also, was Ban Naoyuki and Ban Naotsugu the same person?


Kitsuno can better help with this. I've got Ban Naoyuki, Ban Naotsugu and Ban Dan'emon, all listed as dying in 1615.

Note the error with the Chosokabe and Yamauchi banners on the site. They also seem to use the same 'template' nobori, so the actual shape for some may be wrong.


Last edited by evalerio on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps it was not a good year for the ban family I don't get it
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Perhaps it was not a good year for the ban family I don't get it


Certainly not a 'Ban'ner year. Just Kidding
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:


Also, was Ban Naoyuki and Ban Naotsugu the same person?


Not sure, but I don't think so - Ban Naoyuki was AKA Ban Dan'emon, though.

Here's the history I found on Naoyuki: Ban Naoyuki commanded teppo troops under Kato Yoshiakira, and was given a stipend of 350 koku for his services in the Korean campaigns. He had a falling out with Yoshiakira around Sekigahara, and worked for various daimyo after that, eventually becoming a monk. He left the priesthood in 1614 to join the Toyotomi side during the winter siege of Osaka castle, and was killed in battle in Izumi (at Kashii) in 1615 while fighting against Asano Nagaakira. Can't find anything on Naotsugu.
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have another question, this time regarding Takeda Katsuyori.

While he was the head of the Suwa family did his followers have the Suwa mon on their sashimono?



Also, I have seen a variation of the Takeda mon attributed to Katsuyori.



After Shingen's death would Katsuyori's followers have had this on their sashimono rather than the standard Takeda mon? or this?



Thanks for any help in advance.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 'Dai' 大 banner was his personal Umajirushi, and wasn't worn as a sashimono or as a kamon.

The variation you note is just that; a variation. It didn't replace anything, and could be used interchangeably.

As for what he wore as head of the Suwa family, my understanding was that his being given the name Suwa really didn't mean a whole lot--but I can't really answer the question.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was under the impression that he became the head of the Suwa family until Shingen died. That it wasn't merely a name change, just for the sake of a name change.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
I have another question, this time regarding Takeda Katsuyori.

Also, I have seen a variation of the Takeda mon attributed to Katsuyori.

After Shingen's death would Katsuyori's followers have had this on their sashimono rather than the standard Takeda mon? or this?

Thanks for any help in advance.


Takeda Katsuyori had two versions of his 'dai' uma-jirushi. Black on white. White on black.

His samurai and ashigaru wore the simplified straight-edged Takeda mon on their sashimono. Black takeda mon on white flags.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did that apply for the Suwa as well?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Did that apply for the Suwa as well?


What I know is that the Takeda mon was used by Katsuyori's contingent. Silkscreen illustrations I've seen of Katsuyori do not show the Suwa mon on his troops. Katsuyori's portrait show him with Takeda mon on his clothing.

Additional heraldry. Katsuyori had plain white nobori.

When Takeda troops were absorbed by Tokugawa Ieyasu, they wore the mon of Ieyasu's generals.
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Templar
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Silkscreen illustrations I've seen of Katsuyori do not show the Suwa mon on his troops. Katsuyori's portrait show him with Takeda mon on his clothing.


I wonder if those were done after he became the head of the Takeda family though.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense for The Suwa after Katsuyori took them over for them to use the Takeda mon. I suppose the Suwa wouldn't be all that popular amongst the Takeda anyway, all things considered.

Thanks for the help

A couple other questions I have.

In the book Samurai Heraldry by Turnbull it makes mention of Religiously themed nobori being used by units. Not just the ikko-ikki but also "proper" samurai clans such as the Mori. Would these nobori be intermingled in units who would also use the "normal" nobori? Or would all of the unit use the "religious" nobori?

Also the same book makes mention of some samurai who would get to use plain white sashimono with their name written upon them in some circumstances. Would thistype of thing be a common occurance throughout all of the clans or did it only happen rarely and Turnbull just failed to include that?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Quote:
Silkscreen illustrations I've seen of Katsuyori do not show the Suwa mon on his troops. Katsuyori's portrait show him with Takeda mon on his clothing.


I wonder if those were done after he became the head of the Takeda family though.

I'm not saying that it doesn't make sense for The Suwa after Katsuyori took them over for them to use the Takeda mon. I suppose the Suwa wouldn't be all that popular amongst the Takeda anyway, all things considered.

Thanks for the help

A couple other questions I have.

In the book Samurai Heraldry by Turnbull it makes mention of Religiously themed nobori being used by units. Not just the ikko-ikki but also "proper" samurai clans such as the Mori. Would these nobori be intermingled in units who would also use the "normal" nobori? Or would all of the unit use the "religious" nobori?

Also the same book makes mention of some samurai who would get to use plain white sashimono with their name written upon them in some circumstances. Would thistype of thing be a common occurance throughout all of the clans or did it only happen rarely and Turnbull just failed to include that?


From what I've come across, Katsuyori's troops wore the Takeda mon while Shingen was alive.

Nobori with religious slogans were used by Tokugawa Ieyasu and Takeda Shingen. They were not 'unit' banners and were seen only at the daimyo's HQ.

Samurai with their names written on sashimono were 'individual' heraldry and not 'unit' ones. With the Ii Red Devils only men of high 'rank' could have their names written on their sashimono, some of the mounted samurai which was a minority within the unit.

It would not be wise for an entire 'unit' to have names written on their sashimono, as they are likely to encounter 'individual' enemy troops doing the same. And you have 'friendly fire' incidents which DID happen from time to time.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The book does state that the individual's names on the Sashimono was often reserved for when the Samurai was not going to fight in any more battles.

OR

Was expected to die in that battle (I suppose if a small group of samurai were left behind to "buy" time for the rest of the army to withdraw)

OR

If the Samurai had been given permission to wear it on the basis that he was seeking revenge and was wanting to draw attention to himslf from his enemy.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
I was under the impression that he became the head of the Suwa family until Shingen died. That it wasn't merely a name change, just for the sake of a name change.


Yes, but...that's because his mother was from that family. Keep in mind that Shingen killed off the previous head of the Suwa in a particularly brutal manner, and stole his wife (Shingen's cousin, IIRC), so I wouldn't put too much stock in Katsuyori's standing as head of the "Suwa" family. It made the Suwa a sub-house of the Takeda clan, not a seperate house. This wasn't like Nobunaga making his sons "heads" of the Kitabatake clan and such in order to confirm their allegiance. They subsumed the Suwa clan, and naming Katsuyori the head was a legitimizing tactic that justified incursions into Shinano.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It makes sense, I didn't realize that the Suwa was more or less absorbed into the Takeda. I understand that the Suwa resisted the Takeda while Shingen was campaigning into Shinano but not much more beyond that.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
It makes sense, I didn't realize that the Suwa was more or less absorbed into the Takeda. I understand that the Suwa resisted the Takeda while Shingen was campaigning into Shinano but not much more beyond that.


Once Shingen got the Suwa head (I can't remember his personal name at the moment--Yorishige comes to mind for some reason, but no idea if that's right, and I'm too lazy to look) to come visit Tsutsujigasaki and killed him, there wasn't much Suwa resistance.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is Yorishige, Although I thought he commited seppoku after he and his allies were defeated the second time they clashed with the Takeda.
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