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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 am    Post subject: Heraldry during the Sengoku era... Reply with quote
Does someone have an indepth site that covers the "crests" of various samurai during the Sengoku era. I can find the better known samurai like Takeda and so forth but I am looking for smaller retainer families of the better known samurai.

Any help would be much appreciated.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar,

This is the best collection that I know of that attaches the kamon to family/clan names:

http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
To start:
Twenty pages with some mon:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/dictionary/index.html
Six pages here:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/crest1.html
Five pages here:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/mon.html

NOTE: I don't know how detailed you want to get. Some clan armies did not use mon on their heraldry. Some used three-dimensional objects to identify various 'troop types' or 'units'. Some used rectangular flags, some used squares, some used 'triangles'. Smile


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks I have seen those; the banners page is really good. Well the others are really good too, but they aren't in color, I am looking for color references. Thanks, I should have specified that from the beginning.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar,

Color? The kamon are not colored.


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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay let me rephrase I am looking for crests that would have been used on their troops' sashimino...in color.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Thanks I have seen those; the banners page is really good. Well the others are really good too, but they aren't in color, I am looking for color references. Thanks, I should have specified that from the beginning.


You will have to be specific. It is the 'shape' or form of the kamon that identifies a clan, not 'a' color.

BUT for sashimono, many do not even have kamon. You will have to be very specific here too as mounted samurai, foot samurai, and ashigaru often have different types of flags AND colors in ONE army.

Again, I don't know how far and detailed you want to go.


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am intrested by all of it but I have to narrow it down retainers of the Takeda and Uesugi will be fine. I am looking for banners of lesser vassals and sashimino of troops for both sides. Sorry if that is still kind of broad. For example, I would be looking for Baba Nobufasa'a troops sahimino and his vassals banners and sashimino. One "renowned" samurai's troops and vassals on each side will do as long as they arent Shingen and Kenshin themselves. Thanks.

Edit> sorry I didn't see the tail end of your last post. I can handle as much detail as you are willing to give. I am painting up two opposing samurai forces and I thrive on detail anyway. Two historically opposing forces would be nice.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baba Nobuharu:
Uma Jirushi:
http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/bilder/BabaNobuharuUmaJirushi.png
Nobori:
http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/bilder/BabaNobuharuNobori.png
Sashimono:
http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/bilder/BabaNobuharuFollowerSashimono.png
In many cases mounted samurai had larger flags than those on foot. Ashigaru in some armies did not have sashimono and had the clan's mon or symbol on their jingasa and do instead. I seem to remember the pattern on the Baba Uma-jirushi painted on ashigaru jingasa and do. Will look around to verify.

Will continue to look for a Uesugi retainer.


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:56 am; edited 2 times in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Baba Nobuharu:


Was there supposed to be a link for him too?

Thank you. Were these used for all of the troops under them for larger banners and the Sashimino?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Quote:
Baba Nobuharu:


Was there supposed to be a link for him too?

Thank you. Were these used for all of the troops under them for larger banners and the Sashimino?


Sorry for that. I edited the info above for the use of the sashimono. Regrettably in many examples description of a specific clan armies heraldry often go into detail with only the daimyo's personal set of flags and neglect the lower ranks. Often a 'rule of thumb' is used based on what many armies used for their lower ranks.

As is done here:
http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/BabaNobuharu.shtml
The flag types shown here of Baba do appear the same in several color plates in Turnbull's books.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kakizaki Kageie:

His uma-jirushi was a large golden grasshopper on a blue flag. His mounted samurai wear large sashimono of a radish on red flags. Shown here attacking ashigaru of Takeda Nobushige.
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks it looks like thats Shimazu's banner behind the Kakizaki troops I doubt it Would Kakizaki's ashigaru and foot samurai have the same "radish" sashimino?

Excellent link

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/BabaNobuharu.shtml

thank you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Thanks it looks like thats Shimazu's banner behind the Kakizaki troops I doubt it Would Kakizaki's ashigaru and foot samurai have the same "radish" sashimino?

Excellent link

http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/BabaNobuharu.shtml

thank you.


Samurai of Shimazu Norihisa is said as being with the Kakizaki during the charge. The flags of two minor Uesugi retainers can also be seen in the distance. The three white dots (stars) under a crescent moon of Oishi and in the distance that of the Nozokito (Dark blue flag with white diamond with a white strip near the top of the diamond).

No detailed info on the lower 'ranks' of the Kakizaki. I can see the radish on smaller sashimono for foot samurai and maybe ashigaru. The radish is fairly detailed. Ashigaru sashimono were often 'simplified' and not detailed at all.

As for the link above for Baba Nobuharu...I looked further and found the taller nobori maybe in error.

Below shows the Akita nobori:

For the correct Baba nobori make the two parallel black wavy lines on white flag. The wavy lines closer together in the center of the nobori.


Last edited by evalerio on Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Samurai of Shimazu Norihisa is said as being with the Kakizaki during the charge.


Really? thats pretty cool. If I remember correctly the Akizaki is from far north Japan? right and the Shimazu are from far south. What battle is that picture depicting?

Would it be probable that Akizaki's Ashigaru would just have a plain orange colored Sashimono or similiar?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Quote:
Samurai of Shimazu Norihisa is said as being with the Kakizaki during the charge.


Really? thats pretty cool. If I remember correctly the Akizaki is from far north Japan? right and the Shimazu are from far south. What battle is that picture depicting?

Would it be probable that Akizaki's Ashigaru would just have an orange colored Sashimono or similiar?


That's Kakizaki, which was the vanguard of Uesugi Kenshin, charging into the Takeda at the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima. Though it looks orange in the color plate, the Kakizaki banners is described as red.

Among the Uesugi retainers are the Murakami. Kenshin did not have a navy, but a branch of the Murakami was led by a sea-borne daimyo in the south, a 'pirate king' who ruled from an island and raided from the sea.
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Templar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought it was but I didn't want to make assumptions.

By sea borne Daimyo do you mean one who resided on an island and who did have a navy?

Also why were the Shimazu there?

Also was Akizaki know for anything particular? Like an odd way he used his troops, or he liked fielding huge amounts of archers or anything like that?

Thanks for the help and patience.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:


Also was Akizaki know for anything particular? Like an odd way he used his troops, or he liked fielding huge amounts of archers or anything like that?

Thanks for the help and patience.


I haven't come across anything that would make the Kakizaki different. Their horsemen are shown closely supported by retainers on foot. Japanese illustration show both the Uesugi and the Takeda as fielding mounted archers. They would not have shot blind volleys, but would act as sharpshooters.

The Uesugi and Takeda were evenly matched. A detailed Japanese illustration of the Takeda army show many small teppo squads of three arquebusiers/two archers and 4 arquebusiers/1 archer. Each Teppo squad under the command of a mounted samurai.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
By sea borne Daimyo do you mean one who resided on an island and who did have a navy?


Actually, yes--the Murakami Suigun (navy) is fairly well-known. However, unless Evalerio can show me some evidence, I'm not sure that that Murakami is related to the Murakami from Shinano. Just because they had the same name doesn't mean there is necessarily a connection.

Quote:
Also why were the Shimazu there?


Similiar to the above, same mon doesn't mean they're the same clan. I'd have to go back and check, but I don't believe that those are Shimazu clan banners--I believe another of Uesugi's retainers used a similiar mon design.

One more thing I'll add--E may have explained it and I missed it, but just in case, I'll go ahead. Mon were monochromatic--the color had nothing to do with anything. For instance, the Hojo mon of fish scales


was the same regardless of whether it was rendered in black on a white background, white on a black background, black on a yellow background, white on a blue background, etc. Daimyo might have assigned a particular color banner to a family member (Hojo did this) and all of that son's retainers would carry banners of that color, but there was no significance per se to the mon being one color over another. The design itself is what was important.

Also, as I said, many mon were used by multiple families. Some just were, others were given out by the Imperial family like the Paulownia



so you'll see it multiple places at multiple times; this doesn't necessarily mean there is any connection.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
Samurai of Shimazu Norihisa is said as being with the Kakizaki during the charge.


Source? And which Turnbull book is the illustration from? I had that one at one point, but if it's in "Samurai Warriors" I don't have it anymore.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay, that cleared up alot of confusion on my part. Thank you.

Did all of the vassal samurai of for example on of Hojo's sons wear Hojo's mon? or did some of them have their own?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
evalerio wrote:
Samurai of Shimazu Norihisa is said as being with the Kakizaki during the charge.


Source? And which Turnbull book is the illustration from? I had that one at one point, but if it's in "Samurai Warriors" I don't have it anymore.


The illustration is from 'Samurai Warlords' and if it's an error he listed it too in the Sourcebook, describing him as part of Kakizaki's vanguard at 4th Kawanakajima. The description of the mon is like that of the Shimazu in Kyushu.

My mistake on wording regarding the Murakami. I was refering to one of the three branches of the Murakami in the south. Their heraldry that I have seen are virtually identical to those of Shinano. As you said, unrelated clans using the same symbols and I was using the example of a land-bound army and a sea-borne one having the same name and mon.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
The illustration is from 'Samurai Warlords' and if it's an error he listed it too in the Sourcebook, describing him as part of Kakizaki's vanguard at 4th Kawanakajima. The description of the mon is like that of the Shimazu in Kyushu.


Okay, I'll go back and look at it. I've got that one at home. I'm not saying it's not possible, because it certainly is--look at the Takeda clan, for instance, and their simultaneous existence in Chuugoku and Kai. No reason at all why some Shimazu branch couldn't have been sent off to Hokuriku and somehow made their way into the Uesugi clan after 100 years or so. It's just that when I see that, I become skeptical until shown *how* it happened.

Quote:
My mistake on wording regarding the Murakami. I was refering to one of the three branches of the Murakami in the south. Their heraldry that I have seen are virtually identical to those of Shinano. As you said, unrelated clans using the same symbols and I was using the example of a land-bound army and a sea-borne one having the same name and mon.


I know you didn't necessarily mean to infer a connection, but wanted to make it clear for Templar. There are umpteen examples of the same mon used by different clans, and also of unrelated (or distantly related, separated by hundreds of years) clans having the same name. I find it safer to assume there isn't a connection unless you come across proof of one.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
Did all of the vassal samurai of for example on of Hojo's sons wear Hojo's mon? or did some of them have their own?


If were talking direct retainers of a Hojo son, they likely would have all worn Hojo mon. They'd have to be of a certain rank within the Hojo clan to wear and display their own mon, I believe.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So if that was Shimazu troops in the picture then it would be a possible distant relative of the Shimazu under Yoshihisa. A brach that had become retainers of the Uesugi. Am I understanding correctly?
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