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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
At least we both get something out of it. Very Happy

After Takeda Yoshinobu "died" did anyone inherit his heraldry?


I haven't come across them after his disgrace and disinheritance, so it seems it 'died' with him.

This also concerns Obu Toramasa. Yamagata Masakage inherited the Obu contingent after Toramasa's suicide. I haven't come across the red Obu banners after that and may have disappeared, replaced by Yamagata banners.

The red-armoured men in the front-ranks of Yamagata Masakage's contingent made a lasting impression on Tokugawa Ieyasu. I assume many were former Obu men in red armour, but now wearing black Yamagata sashimono. This is how I see the 'red regiment' under Masakage.

I am still looking at this...
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Templar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am just painting everyone in Yamagata's contingent with red armor, it is more striking visually that way.

Also I was thinking last night and I think we confused each other when we were talking about the colored bands representing companies or contingents.

I meant for example.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 1st company would have 1 white band.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 2nd company would have 2 white bands.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 3rd company would have 3 white bands.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 1st company would have 1 yellow band.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 2nd company would have 2 yellow bands.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 3rd company would have 3 yellow bands.

with each of his contingents having different colored bands. In that matter nothing would repeat itself because the blue background and white mon would not change so it could still be identified as his and not Anayama'a contingents Or his and katsuyori's contingent if using the white/black mon flags.

Maybe that is a better explanation then the one I was attempting before.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:
I am just painting everyone in Yamagata's contingent with red armor, it is more striking visually that way.

Also I was thinking last night and I think we confused each other when we were talking about the colored bands representing companies or contingents.

I meant for example.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 1st company would have 1 white band.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 2nd company would have 2 white bands.

Nobukado's 1st contingent 3rd company would have 3 white bands.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 1st company would have 1 yellow band.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 2nd company would have 2 yellow bands.

Nobukado's 2nd contingent 3rd company would have 3 yellow bands.

with each of his contingents having different colored bands. In that matter nothing would repeat itself because the blue background and white mon would not change so it could still be identified as his and not Anayama'a contingents Or his and katsuyori's contingent if using the white/black mon flags.

Maybe that is a better explanation then the one I was attempting before.


It's your army, so you can depict Masakage's army your way. As to colored bands, again it's your army. If you are pleased that's what matters.


Right now, I personally would apply this rule for ALL samurai armies. The Hojo's colored regiments and the Uesugi are examples.

The most often used color for 'company bands' is WHITE on dark color flags (black/blue/red) and BLACK on light color flags (white/yellow, also on red/blue).

I've corrected Yoshinobu's sashimono. Still looking at Naito.

The NUMBER of bands, NOT the color of the band, would be 'universally' recognized. Instead of colored BANDS to identify a 'second contingent' for the SAME commander, often an entirely DIFFERENT BANNER was used. Example: Naito, Katsuyori, Nobukado, Yamamoto, Sanada. All with at least two versions. The Sanada three or four while serving the Takeda.


Last edited by evalerio on Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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Templar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It's your army, so you can depict Masakage's army your way. As to colored bands, again it's your army. If you are pleased that's what matters.


Right now, I personally would apply this rule for ALL samurai armies. The Hojo's colored regiments and the Uesugi are examples.

The most often used color for 'company bands' is WHITE on dark color flags (black/blue/red) and BLACK on light color flags (white/yellow, also on red).

The NUMBER of bands, NOT the color of the band, would be 'universally' recognized. Instead of colored BANDS to identify a 'second contingent' for the SAME commander, often an entirely DIFFERENT BANNER was used. Example: Naito, Katsuyori, Nobukado, Yamamoto, Sanada. All with at least two versions. The Sanada three or four while serving the Takeda.


I was just clearing up what I was trying to say is all.

I plan on doing Nobukado's two Contingents in my army as one blue and one white as per your example.

Did you ever find the missing Naito brother's name?
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Templar wrote:

I plan on doing Nobukado's two Contingents in my army as one blue and one white as per your example.

Did you ever find the missing Naito brother's name?


No luck. I'm thinking 'Kudo' as the brother's name instead of Naito.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:36 am    Post subject: Mori Nagayoshi Reply with quote
Does anyone have the Nobori for Mori Nagayoshi (killed at Nagakute) on their computer?

Cheers.
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Mori Nagayoshi Reply with quote
BadMonk wrote:
Does anyone have the Nobori for Mori Nagayoshi (killed at Nagakute) on their computer?

Cheers.



The nobori will be an easy one. It's just plain white.

This is a 'work in progress'. The set comes from the Nagakute screen. There are other sashimono not shown here yet, including a larger 3d fan samurai sashimono.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Mori Nagayoshi Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
BadMonk wrote:
Does anyone have the Nobori for Mori Nagayoshi (killed at Nagakute) on their computer?

Cheers.



The nobori will be an easy one. It's just plain white.

This is a 'work in progress'. The set comes from the Nagakute screen. There are other sashimono not shown here yet, including a larger 3d fan samurai sashimono.

Excellent (and fast!) work as always Evalerio!
Thank you!
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
To Gert:



Date Masamune's personal standard of a white flag with red disc.
Dark blue nobori with gold disc.
O uma-jirushi of two black umbrellas topped by a gold plume.
Ko Uma-jirushi of black banner with black plume.

Not seen: White sashimono with black lovebirds mon. NOTE: very similar to the white Uesugi sashimono on the Samurai Heraldry Gallery.
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Gert
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Domo!
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Zenmaster
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's a website that I had to share with everyone. I apologize if I'm off topic. It has alot of samurai heraldry items that are interesting.

http://www.winterjapaneseart.com/Accessoriesgallery.html

Isaias
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zenmaster wrote:
Here's a website that I had to share with everyone. I apologize if I'm off topic. It has alot of samurai heraldry items that are interesting.

http://www.winterjapaneseart.com/Accessoriesgallery.html

Isaias


The banners are very nicely done.

But it isn't clear when one set of banners begin and end, so some 'sections' might cause confusion as they combine banners from two to three different clans.

The Kyogoku with the Hosokawa.

The Ogasawara with the Nakagawa (center section).

The Asano with the Tsugaru (right section). Asano with an Ikeda I have not yet identified (center section).

The Niwa, the Shimazu and Aoki combined (left section).

Mori and Kato.


It will be fun sorting them out. Cool
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BadMonk
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PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very nice! I want the "Superb Pair Of 18th Century Russet Iron'Tsu-tsu Gote'". Very Happy
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
New license plate design for moped in Ueda city has Sanada's Rokumonsen on it.

http://www.shinmai.co.jp/news/20080527/KT080526FTI090011000022.htm
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wismerhill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello,
I am painting a takeda and Uesugi Army in miniatures, and I have some questions :

How OBATA Masamori sashimono look like ?

In Nagashino Osprey, samurai mounted wearing white sashimono with Obata's Red Mon.

But in the second page of this topic, it is different like inthe following link : http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/ObataMasamori.shtml

In the same time do you have some link where i can find armour of lords and sashimono of these two army

thank
Sorry for my english...
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
wismerhill wrote:
Hello,
I am painting a takeda and Uesugi Army in miniatures, and I have some questions :

How OBATA Masamori sashimono look like ?

In Nagashino Osprey, samurai mounted wearing white sashimono with Obata's Red Mon.

But in the second page of this topic, it is different like inthe following link : http://folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai/takeda/ObataMasamori.shtml

In the same time do you have some link where i can find armour of lords and sashimono of these two army

thank
Sorry for my english...


Armour of Obata Masamori, the one depicted in the color plate in the Osprey Nagashino book:

NOTE: The plant mon painted on the breastplate and the fan painted on the back, two motif used on Obata sashimono.

Obata samurai armour and sashimono:


More samples of Obata armour. Note red jinbaori in the back:


Obata jingasa for ashigaru:


A jinbaori from the same Obata set:


I haven't come across an explanation for the alternate design for Obata heraldry. Modern day reenactors use the simpler red mon on white for both Uma-jirushi and sashimono. Color plates in different Turnbull books use the same simpler red mon on white for Uma-jirushi and sashimono.

Ashigaru sashimono tend to be of simpler designs than those of samurai. It is possible that the simpler red mon on white would be used by ashigaru and the more elaborate bamboo fan and plant mon on white used by samurai.

Banners for Uesugi Kenshin and three of his generals appear on page 2 of 'Samurai Heraldry Gallery'.
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Emmanuel, you should seriously think about writing a
book with all your works...
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Zenmaster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:55 am    Post subject: O Uma Jirushi Reply with quote
Hi, I just found pics of the O Uma Jirushi. The names of the daimyo are listed but unfortunately I can't read japanese. Here's the first scroll.









































Last edited by Zenmaster on Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's the second scroll.




































Last edited by Zenmaster on Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's the third scroll.








































Last edited by Zenmaster on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's the fourth scroll.





































Last edited by Zenmaster on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's the fifth scroll.







































Last edited by Zenmaster on Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's the sixth and final scroll. Here is the link to where I found them. The website is pretty difficult to navigate though. It's all the way at the bottom.
http://www.ndl.go.jp/exhibit60/e/copy3/1emakimono.html

Isaias











































Last edited by Zenmaster on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you, Zenmaster.

I now know what I'll be doing for the next twenty years!!

NOTE: In MANY examples the 'groupings' of flags do not represent a set. "Groupings' could represent half a set from TWO different daimyo. The left half with the rest of that set disappearing to the left of the photo. The right half with the rest of that set disappearing to the right of the photo.

In other words, you have to look at two successive pages to see a complete set. Not all, but enough to be confusing at first glance.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Any chance you might do a plate for the Shimazu?

Isaias
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