Register :: Log in :: Profile   


New book on Tsunayoshi

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // The Edo Period
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
nagaeyari
Asuka no Kami
Asuka no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 2354
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: New book on Tsunayoshi Reply with quote
http://tinyurl.com/fdw2s

By Bailey, who has put out some pretty good stuff in the past.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shikisoku
Yamashiro no Kami
Yamashiro no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 2638
Location: 天領 Tama

PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
$57.00 Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fairly typical price for an academic bood.


Tony
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: The Dog Shogun Reply with quote
I just received this book, and upon a quick skimming it looks very impressive. It gives a fair and balanced view of Tsunayoshi’s reign and dispels some of the myths surrounding him along with his Chamberlain Yanagisawa. The book makes very good use of original sources and documents that have recently come to light rather than regurgitating legends. It also has a good sized chapter on the Asano/Kira and 47 Ronin incidents and how the Shogunate dealt with them and how judgement was arrived at. I’m looking forward to giving it a full read (which will have to wait until after the Gikeike, Hogen Monogatari, and Japan’s Medieval Population). It goes into a lot of detail into documentation of Lord Asano’s vices. He was a notorious womanizer who richly rewarded retainers that procured attractive women for him. Asano basically cared only for personal amusement and left the running of his domains to his retainers. In the Dokai Koshuki it is noted that Asano had ‘neither literary nor military skills’ and as his contemporary Sato Naokata pointed out, “Attacking a man engaged in discussion from behind and not succeeding in killing him showed neither courage nor ability”. Asano’s lack of sword skills was also made light of by a popular ditty of the day. Interestingly, Asano’s uncle Naito Izumi-No-Kami Tadakatsu also was executed for spilling blood during a ritual occasion-killing a daimyo during funeral rites for the fourth Tokugawa Shogun. The ‘loyal retainers’ of Asano (chief among them being Oishi Kuranosuke) were also brought to task since Asano’s history of uncontrolled behavior and lack of civil and military accomplishments were to a large extent their responsibility. They failed to train him properly and admonish him when necessary, perhaps out of a desire to not relinquish their status and authority in clan matters as Asano got older. Further documentation questions whether the assassination of Kira was as selfless as it was made to be over the years. Another interesting point I had never thought of is that samurai revenge was carried out by the injured, not the assailant-but in the 47 Ronin incident, this was reversed. Lord Kira is also shown through historical documentation to have not been the bad guy he is traditionally regarded as (also through the lack of any documents showing he was). In a rather hilarious aside, it is mentioned that the spears of several of the 47 ronin are on display at Ako castle museum along with a sign explaining that ‘the ronin used these weapons due to their lack of ability to use the two swords of a samurai effectively’. It was quite interesting to see the veil of legend torn away with a new take on things.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wicked iemon
The Lemon King
The Lemon King
Iga no Kami
Iga no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 1091
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:17 pm    Post subject: Tsunayoshi Reply with quote
Harold Bolithio (i forget his last name )did a really great take on Tsunayoshi in the book" Personality In Japanese History " that has many of the same conclusions as Bodart Bailey ,It would seem if you were from the bushi class under Tsunayoshi you had nothing coming but if you were a scholar,merchant ,even a commoner things were looking up (until the Earthquake and Fire of course ).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
heron
萩守
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 1136
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I bought this after reading about it here. I like it very much. It's very balanced, very clear on sources and very well written. The chapter on the 47 ronin is excellent.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1698
Location: Columbia, Maryland U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
I bought this after reading about it here. I like it very much. It's very balanced, very clear on sources and very well written. The chapter on the 47 ronin is excellent.
I haven't read the book. The price tag was quite high. I suppose I'll have to get it sooner or later. Because we've already had a knock-down/drag-out fight in the 47 Ronin discussion about the source(s) that she cites for her views about the Ako Vendetta affair.

As I said. I haven't read the book. I really shouldn't comment on the book itself. So I won't. I'd like to see your summary of what Bodart-Bailey says about the affair.

Just some general observations, however. Speculations -- please let me know if I'm on the right track or way off. I've noticed that in general, when certain historical personages are celebrated widely as heroes -- that opposing, sometimes revisionist views come out. That proport to say that the celebrating is based upon falsehoods and that the heroes shouldn't be celebrated at all. An example right here in the U.S.A. is about the famous battle of the Alamo. For decades, people in the U.S. have celebrated the fighters who defended the Alamo (and gave up their lives to do so) as heroes. However, recently, opposing, more revisionist views have come out, that the Alamo fighters weren't heroes at all. Instead, they were part of a colonizing, imperialist force that sought to conquer Mexico -- or else similar views.

So I'm curious. As I think that you are a lot closer to academic trends in Japan. Are Japanese scholars now revising their views on the Ako ronin? Are Japanese scholars rethinking the views that the 47 Ako ronin should be celebrated as heroes? Does Bodart-Bailey's views match those of other scholars, or is hers a lone, dissenting voice about Asano Naganori, Kira Yoshinaka, and the 47 former Ako retainers?

Just my speculations, they might be wrong. But I would suspect that the truth about Asano Naganori and the former Ako retainers who avenged him are somewhere between the celebratory accolades and the revisionist stories.

Comments? Confused
_________________
"Walk the thousand mile road, step by step" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
The price tag was quite high.


I've given up on buying books. I'm subject to the selection of my local libraries and book stores. Confused I wish you could get books off-line as easily as music. Why doesn't anyone scan and upload books? Do the world a service!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
msr.iaidoka
Iaidouka
Iaidouka
Veteran Member



Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 1865
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

Foot in Mouth Yeah, screw those academics who labored for years on their research to pull together a coherent manuscript.


平和,

マット
_________________
鋼鉄の海軍
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

Foot in Mouth Yeah, screw those academics who labored for years on their research to pull together a coherent manuscript.


平和,

マット


Laughing

Yeah! SCREW EM! Buncha money grubbin whores I tell ya!

You know, with some salt and maybe some steak sauce I might get used to having my foot in my mouth.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rikoseishin
Shushou
Shushou
Veteran Member



Joined: 10 May 2006
Posts: 861
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nitsu,

A...you realize where you're at right? I doubt it

Some of the most well known, and highly regarded authors frequent this forum who make their living, in a round about way, by spending years researching and writing those books. Hell, you have even conversed with some of them.
_________________
"The end of our Way of the sword is to be fearless when confronting our inner enemies and our outer enemies."
-Yamaoka Tesshu

Jonah Matheson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
Nitsu,

A...you realize where you're at right? I doubt it

Some of the most well known, and highly regarded authors frequent this forum who make their living, in a round about way, by spending years researching and writing those books. Hell, you have even conversed with some of them.


I kid because I love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Obenjo Kusanosuke
Kii no Kami
Kii no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4554
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:


I kid because I love.


Then you must love the abuse! Steel chair! E-smack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
heron
萩守
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 1136
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The chapter is too long for me to summarise but it really is worth reading. I'll send you a pm about it. Here's B-B's summary.

"The picture that emerges is that of desperate men trying to survive in the maelstrom of change. With an abrupt discrediting of traditional values the fifth shogun (Tsunayoshi) attempted a major paradigm change. This must have produced feelings of helplessness and confusion in the minds of many samurai as they attempted to make their way in this changed environment with its fundamental revision of the traditional value system. The Ako samurai came to symbolize this suffering as men from a nostalgic past, as battlers against the harsh government of the day that was intent on destroying their cherished values. Their summary death ordered by an unpopular shogun permitted quick deification. To complete the process of creating larger than life images, any human foibles had to be shed. Every part of their action came to be uncritically accepted as serving a greater public good, and those that appealed to an examination of the facts were in turn accused of delusion."

I can't really claim to be closer to academic trends in Japan - I just have a close Japanese friend also interested in history and we discuss these things a lot. My impression is that Japanese historians are pretty diverse and often revisionist - perhaps Shikisoku can tell us more.

My own temperamental bent is towards revisionism as though I love the myths that make up great theatre and literature, I am not crazy about "heroes" Just Kidding

[message from WT: I accidently edited your posting. What I meant to do is post a response to it. I've tried to put your post back in the condition it was in before I hacked it up accidently. Please excuse my clumsy actions. Crying or Very sad ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1698
Location: Columbia, Maryland U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
The chapter is too long for me to summarise but it really is worth reading. I'll send you a pm about it. Here's B-B's summary.

"The picture that emerges is that of desperate men trying to survive in the maelstrom of change. With an abrupt discrediting of traditional values the fifth shogun (Tsunayoshi) attempted a major paradigm change. This must have produced feelings of helplessness and confusion in the minds of many samurai as they attempted to make their way in this changed environment with its fundamental revision of the traditional value system. The Ako samurai came to symbolize this suffering as men from a nostalgic past, as battlers against the harsh government of the day that was intent on destroying their cherished values. Their summary death ordered by an unpopular shogun permitted quick deification. To complete the process of creating larger than life images, any human foibles had to be shed. Every part of their action came to be uncritically accepted as serving a greater public good, and those that appealed to an examination of the facts were in turn accused of delusion."
Thanks. I'd like to see what you say.
Quote:
I can't really claim to be closer to academic trends in Japan - I just have a close Japanese friend also interested in history and we discuss these things a lot. My impression is that Japanese historians are pretty diverse and often revisionist - perhaps Shikisoku can tell us more.
That's what I thought -- there are diverse views on the Ako incident along with other incidents.
Quote:
My own temperamental bent is towards revisionism as though I love the myths that make up great theatre and literature, I am not crazy about "heroes" Just Kidding
I also like to question official "heroic" accounts. However, I'm not a knee-jerk revisionist. What I've been getting during the discussions about Bodart-Bailey and the 47 Ronin is that she seems intent on de-mythologizing the people involved. Nothing wrong with that, in of itself. However -- though I may be quite wrong -- it seems from the summaries I've read so far as if she's going off in the opposite direction i.e. instead of presenting Asano Naganori and his ex-retainers as heroes, she wants to present them as people not worthy of being regarded as heroes at all.

I know I'm being as "clear as mud" here; I'm not always very good at expressing myself. It seems like the thesis/anti-thesis thing is happening i.e. thesis: people saying that Asano and the Ako ronin are spotless heroes, without any flaws. Then the anti-thesis: people saying that Asano was a bad-tempered womanizer who promoted retainers on the basis of whether or not they supplied women to him (that's one version I read in a different thread in this forum; not sure if this is what Bodart-Bailey said). More of the anti-thesis is that Kira Yoshinaka was an innocent old man who was unfairly victimized and murdered by Asano's men.

I'm not a scholar, hey I can't even read Japanese. However, I would suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. That Asano and his ex-retainers acted in ways that were heroic. However, they were also human beings with human failings.
_________________
"Walk the thousand mile road, step by step" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
heron
萩守
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 1136
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
[message from WT: I accidently edited your posting. What I meant to do is post a response to it. I've tried to put your post back in the condition it was in before I hacked it up accidently. Please excuse my clumsy actions. ]


Just re-read it and thought "Did I or did I not launch into a rave about Chushingura? Where did it go?" The point was that I love the legend (and the kabuki play especially) but also want to know the history behind it. I think B-B perceives both the legend and the history very clearly as can be seen in the quote from her book in my last post (the part that survived Very Happy )

Quote:
That Asano and his ex-retainers acted in ways that were heroic. However, they were also human beings with human failings.


I think I see it almost the other way round: that neither they nor their actions were particularly heroic but were portrayed as heroic afterwards because of their struggle against a changing society (hmmm: shades of the Shinsengumi) Just Kidding

Well, on second thoughts, I don't think Asano was heroic (though Enya Hangan most definitely is, in the play), but I think some of the actions of his retainers were - in a way that caught the imagination of the people of the time because it reflected some of the deep changes of the era.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1698
Location: Columbia, Maryland U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
Quote:
That Asano and his ex-retainers acted in ways that were heroic. However, they were also human beings with human failings.


I think I see it almost the other way round: that neither they nor their actions were particularly heroic but were portrayed as heroic afterwards because of their struggle against a changing society (hmmm: shades of the Shinsengumi) Just Kidding
Except that the period around the turn of the 17th/18th century was a period noted by stability, not rapid change. Some people have characterized the Genroku period as "stable, promoting the high arts", etc. Others have characterized this period as "stagnant."

I don't buy into this (what I see basically as "revisionist") idea -- the idea that the Ako ronin were just ordinary troublesome ronin at best, or murderers at the worst i.e. murdering an innocent old man and claiming "revenge," but were lionized by the masses who apparently needed a good heroic fantasy tale at the time. I just don't buy that point of view. This view seems to imply in many ways that the masses of the time were gullable and easily manipulated and brainwashed. That only a scholarly elite can understand and perceive the "truth."

I have serious doubts that Asano Naganori was the paragon of virtue that he is portrayed as in many plays/films/accounts. He was a human being with human flaws; Horibe Yasubei (one of the "Edo militants"), in letters to Oishi Kuranosuke, described Asano Naganori as being "hot-tempered." But there was something about him that inspired 47 (46? 48?) of his ex-retainers to take chances and go to a lot of trouble in order to "right" what they saw as a grievous wrong. Remember that the Ako clan wasn't the only clan abolished; there were plenty of other clans being abolished during that time. The ex-retainers in those clans didn't plot revenge, they just settled down to live the not-very-pleasant lives that most Edo period ronin lived in those days.

So I also have serious doubts in the revisionist view, that Asano was a corrupt womanizer and despot. Bodart-Bailey cites a bakufu document that quite readily could have carried the agenda of the bakufu and/or of the bakufu official who wrote it. I would need to see other evidence than that to support her view on Asano Naganori.
Quote:
Well, on second thoughts, I don't think Asano was heroic (though Enya Hangan most definitely is, in the play), but I think some of the actions of his retainers were - in a way that caught the imagination of the people of the time because it reflected some of the deep changes of the era.
The problem is that no one really knows what actually happened between Asano and Kira in that fateful encounter -- what provoked the attack, no one knows. Okada Denpachiro, the Shogunate official who left an eyewitness acount of what happened directly afterward, didn't know. The Kabuki/film writers/Confucianist scholars didn't know. James Murdoch didn't know. Beatrice Bodart-Bailey doesn't know. No one knows. People can only speculate.

One can speculate that Kira Yoshinaka was a feeble old man who was only following the tenor of the times and was unfairly marked for attack and revenge by an ill-tempered, resentful daimyo, and basically ended up a murder victim. One can also speculate just as easily that Kira Yoshinaka was greedy, that he had piled insults upon a different daimyo years earlier (as Murdoch has recounted), and that, angry over the lack of sufficient "gifts" i.e. bribes, determined that Asano and his clan would be ruined no matter what; if Asano had held his temper and had blundered during the upcoming Envoy's reception because of deliberately bad instruction, would he have been similarly condemned, with his han being abolished? One can speculate a number of scenarios somewhere in between these two extremes in views.

Same with the Ako ronin who plotted the revenge. Were they a troublesome lot of resentful ronin, angry enough over the loss of their stipends and prestigious positions as samurai retainers that they would plot murder on an innocent elderly gentleman? Or were they loyal samurai, taking action to right what was a grievous wrong done to their lord?

Or perhaps, they were they cowards, hiding in the shadows? Yamamoto Tsunetomo criticized them in the famous/infamous HAGAKURE, stating that they should have taken immediate action rather than waiting as they did.

I'm sure that the answer lies somewhere in between the idea that the Ako ronin and their condemned lord were spotless heroes without flaws, and the idea that they were murderers who had been influenced by a mad despot who had one ruled over them.
_________________
"Walk the thousand mile road, step by step" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Obenjo Kusanosuke
Kii no Kami
Kii no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4554
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
WT,
That was a good and well written post. For me, I've come to accept that the 47 Ronin incident, while highly interesting, is really just a hiccup in the larger scheme of Edo period history. What makes this hiccup so interesting is the controversy is that has generated for centuries, both in and out of Japan.

I for one don't think the controversy will ever go away, so I've given up trying to analyze fact from fiction and right from wrong regarding Asano, Kira, Oishi and the rest of the gang. I just like to read about the incident from time to time and watch the chushingura movies for the sake of pure entertainment. One last thing though. No matter how long it took the Ako ronin to get their revenge and no matter if some people say it was sneaky, or just murder of a feeble old man, the attack on Kira's yashiki sure took some big kahunas, and I admire that. Kind of like how it was recklessly brave of Kondo and his boys to go barging into the Ikedaya the way that they did. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
the attack on Kira's yashiki sure took some big kahunas, and I admire that. Kind of like how it was recklessly brave of Kondo and his boys to go barging into the Ikedaya the way that they did. Very Happy


Although it should be pointed out...
1)Kondo's boys were brave/stupid enough to raid an inn blindly...an inn where they found themselves outnumbered by alert trained swordsmen, but STILL managed to put the smackdown on them.
2)The ronin raided a house they had 'staked out' for quite some time, made extensive plans concerning it, and assaulted them on a night when they felt circumstances were just right (snow to muffle footsteps, and after a night where Kira had hoseted a large celebration, and of course the dead of night when most of the staff would be sleeping). Depending on which account you read, the 47 ronin faced somewhere from 3-6 armed guards (most of whom were sleeping), the remainder of the people inside being unarmed household staff (also known as 'fish in a barrel'...35 or so-lots of them ran off, and the ronin killed many of the ones that didn't). Kira didn't even have the gates of the mansion guarded-just manned by porters. While I admire the job they did in planning and carrying out the attack, it was hardly the noble battle against overwhelming odds you see in movies and plays.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Obenjo Kusanosuke
Kii no Kami
Kii no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 4554
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Although it should be pointed out...
1)Kondo's boys were brave/stupid enough to raid an inn blindly...an inn where they found themselves outnumbered by alert trained swordsmen, but STILL managed to put the smackdown on them.
2)The ronin raided a house they had 'staked out' for quite some time, made extensive plans concerning it, and assaulted them on a night when they felt circumstances were just right (snow to muffle footsteps, and after a night where Kira had hoseted a large celebration, and of course the dead of night when most of the staff would be sleeping). Depending on which account you read, the 47 ronin faced somewhere from 3-6 armed guards (most of whom were sleeping), the remainder of the people inside being unarmed household staff (also known as 'fish in a barrel'...35 or so-lots of them ran off, and the ronin killed many of the ones that didn't). Kira didn't even have the gates of the mansion guarded-just manned by porters. While I admire the job they did in planning and carrying out the attack, it was hardly the noble battle against overwhelming odds you see in movies and plays.


You know, I think you just brought up a great example of the fact vs fiction controversy that rages on about the 47 Ronin Incident.

Heavens! Did I fall into a well of fictional fabrications?!? Anyway, you could be right. Thanks to movies and reading pulp fiction, I have images in my mind of Kira being guarded by crack units of Uesugi samurai. The fact that the 47 ronin did the job without losing a man is testament to a) they planned things very well; b) it was very easy because Kira was lightly guarded; or c) it was too easy because Kira was actually guarded by Imperial Stormtroopers with Han Solo leading the ronin, hence making the outcome very predictable.

I would still say that it took kahunas for the 47 ronin to do what they did, because it was clear that their actions would result in only one outcome whether they succeeded or not in taking Kira's head. That only outcome was their own deaths at the hands of Kira's guards, bakufu executioners, or by their own hands. Belief in the bushido or not, it takes courage to dance with the reaper. That is why I think there were so many defections from the actual number of 150+ (?) or so Ako samurai who originally swore vengeance when Asano was forced to commit seppuku. Not so many of them of them were willing to end their lives by joining Oishi when push came to shove. Or then again, maybe they got bored waiting and found something more interesting to do in the interim, such as making umbrellas. Who knows? Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
The fact that the 47 ronin did the job without losing a man is testament to a) they planned things very well; b) it was very easy because Kira was lightly guarded; or c) it was too easy because Kira was actually guarded by Imperial Stormtroopers with Han Solo leading the ronin, hence making the outcome very predictable.


I'll choose A & B. The plan was great, and the defenders sparse.
C is merely urban legend-Han was documented by Monumenta Hoth to have been off 'playing checkers' with Chewy that night, if you catch my drift.

Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
I would still say that it took kahunas for the 47 ronin to do what they did, because it was clear that their actions would result in only one outcome whether they succeeded or not in taking Kira's head. That only outcome was their own deaths at the hands of Kira's guards, bakufu executioners, or by their own hands. :



Well, Monumenta Nipponica (and Japanese sources they quote), Bailey, et al, also have theories about that...that the Ronin went into the whole thing expecting to get pardoned by Tsunayoshi at the end. Having served up those posts once, I'll leave them be for now...and with that, return to the nurturing goodness of the Shinto/Buddhist forum Just Kidding.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1698
Location: Columbia, Maryland U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Heron has agreed to send me a photocopy of Bodart-Bailey's chapter on the 47 Ronin. So I'll refrain from making too many comments until I get Bodart-Bailey's treatise so I can read it for myself. Then I'll come on with comments. Cool
_________________
"Walk the thousand mile road, step by step" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // The Edo Period All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group