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Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch

 
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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch Reply with quote


What do you think of this technique? It is extraordinarily difficult to block. I was looking at for a picture of Jion, and I was thinking that one of the techniques would block a Yama-Zuki. We called it an inside outside block, since one hand blocks downward and sweeps across the chest as the other hand blocks upward. Looking at this picture of Jion
reminds me of the move called Monkey steals a Peach. Is it the same move? When I did a google search, all I found were silly ninja moves.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

That technique is, in all honesty, highly ineffective. The top arm has a shorter range than the lower arm. The best defense against it a sidestep with a good hook or knee to the very exposed face or a nice kick between the wide open legs. Or, if you are feeling particularly mean, you can do an arch sweep in the front leg and let his lack of centralized balance be his downfall. Thirdly, fading back to just outside of arm range would still leave you within kicking range for a good foot to the face.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:


What do you think of this technique? It is extraordinarily difficult to block. I was looking at for a picture of Jion, and I was thinking that one of the techniques would block a Yama-Zuki. We called it an inside outside block, since one hand blocks downward and sweeps across the chest as the other hand blocks upward. Looking at this picture of Jion
reminds me of the move called Monkey steals a Peach. Is it the same move? When I did a google search, all I found were silly ninja moves.


Good waza. Strike to groin/abdomen and face.The bottom one apears to come from Kan Ku Sho.Low block(gedan uke) to the front and back fist to the rear(ushiro uraken).In the kata this posture is followed up with double punches.Good stuff!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:07 am    Post subject: Re: Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch Reply with quote
Bladeswinger wrote:
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:


What do you think of this technique? It is extraordinarily difficult to block. I was looking at for a picture of Jion, and I was thinking that one of the techniques would block a Yama-Zuki. We called it an inside outside block, since one hand blocks downward and sweeps across the chest as the other hand blocks upward. Looking at this picture of Jion
reminds me of the move called Monkey steals a Peach. Is it the same move? When I did a google search, all I found were silly ninja moves.


Good waza. Strike to groin/abdomen and face.The bottom one apears to come from Kan Ku Sho.Low block(gedan uke) to the front and back fist to the rear(ushiro uraken).In the kata this posture is followed up with double punches.Good stuff!


To me I wouldnt trust the top one, it looks like you need to extend yourself furthe rout then whats safe.
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Nakandakari Lobato
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject: True Reply with quote
My Sensei used to say that there are always counters to any technique, and hence we can always criticize and say, "But if I do this then the technique will fail." There are weaknesses as you point out. He used to say any atemi is a lever. So I guess Yama Zuki would give two levers and hence would be problematic.

When I have used the technique sparring, as long as I didn't telegraph the technique, I surprised my sparring partner. It also generated a huge amount of hip force. Especially when the maai (distance) was very close. To execute the technique when the opponent was more than arms length would be silly, almost posing.

Now I'll make you scoff at me, but I like to watch the Ultimate Fighter. Have you noticed that their techniques seem rather limited in the field versus the plethora of techniques that they learn? Their supposedly using Jujitsu, Greco-Roman wrestling, and Sambo (Russian). It's almost like the once they begin fightinng, they forget all of the weapons in their arsenal.

Do you think that in a real fight, we only use what is useful? Do you think that most of the techniques are not helpful, and so we rely upon what works? Or do you think that we get pumped up on adrenaline and we get sloppy?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: True Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:
My Sensei used to say that there are always counters to any technique, and hence we can always criticize and say, "But if I do this then the technique will fail." There are weaknesses as you point out. He used to say any atemi is a lever. So I guess Yama Zuki would give two levers and hence would be problematic.

When I have used the technique sparring, as long as I didn't telegraph the technique, I surprised my sparring partner. It also generated a huge amount of hip force. Especially when the maai (distance) was very close. To execute the technique when the opponent was more than arms length would be silly, almost posing.

Now I'll make you scoff at me, but I like to watch the Ultimate Fighter. Have you noticed that their techniques seem rather limited in the field versus the plethora of techniques that they learn? Their supposedly using Jujitsu, Greco-Roman wrestling, and Sambo (Russian). It's almost like the once they begin fightinng, they forget all of the weapons in their arsenal.

Do you think that in a real fight, we only use what is useful? Do you think that most of the techniques are not helpful, and so we rely upon what works? Or do you think that we get pumped up on adrenaline and we get sloppy?


I would guess, use what works. If someone left them selves wide open for say any attack, I would just knock the sh**t out of them with my fists, instead of attempting a more complex technique. So if a particular technique works at that moment then sure, but I doubt the Ultimate fighters go in and think
if he does this ill do that and then do that.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato,

It is all a matter of whether or not a particular school thinks about its techniques before teaching them. Quite a many techniques throughout the martial arts world just do not work in this world anymore. As such, if the school seeks to teach effective combat and not just a classical martial "art" then things need to be changed. If the student places combative effectiveness over martial stylization then they need to find a place that fits their desires. As maikeruart said, the technique vastly overextends the attacker. It is a situation where if you miss then your recovery time is such that you will be at a disadvantage for too long and any competent fighter will destroy you. Honestly, even if you make contact I have to question the overall effectiveness of the strike to incapacitate the opponent.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The best way to see if a technique works is to use it against an opponent. Something may look strange, but if it works then use it. The best test is to use it against opponents that don't know the technique or your style.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

Having come from a varied background in the arts I have used, and had used against me, many such techniques. If I remember correctly I have ever had that one used either against me or one of my fellow students. The results were not good for the attacker.
I have come to believe, after 18 years in the system, that there are certain fundamental rules of combat that must always be followed, no matter what style is being used. Overextending yourself and offering your skull for ritual sacrifice is not one of them.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Hysterical Reply with quote
Take that! Happy Dance
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin,

Having come from a varied background in the arts I have used, and had used against me, many such techniques. If I remember correctly I have ever had that one used either against me or one of my fellow students. The results were not good for the attacker.
I have come to believe, after 18 years in the system, that there are certain fundamental rules of combat that must always be followed, no matter what style is being used. Overextending yourself and offering your skull for ritual sacrifice is not one of them.


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I agree with you about the technique... I was just trying to say something in the nicest way possible. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin,

Ah, ok, understood.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch Reply with quote
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:


What do you think of this technique?


If you yell "Hadouken!" when you do it, it is much more effective, and the resulting fireball will knock your enemy down every time.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: OK Reply with quote
But the hand position would be wrong. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Unless, of course, you counter it with your own hadouken. Better yet a "kamehameha blast" or a "FSCATBBMPCB-Barbara Streisand" zap.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:31 am    Post subject: doble punch Reply with quote
Hi All, Just a personal observation here. I find all double punches to be a dicey technique. The Syeung Kuen (double fist) technique that is an over and under, centre line, mid level double punch which is a direct strike (short distance for strike and recovery) and provides the least entrance for countering is still too dangerous as it opens up the body to attack in too many ways. The photo of the technique above may have a hidden application other than the obvious. There are a few times when a technique I have learned seem senseless (I am looking for a word that isn't so strong, but..) but when the hidden application was shown became clear. There are some two hand techniques that are taught that way but in actual sparring are used one handed. Not saying that is the case here but that overhand strike used as a block with a simultaneous strike may be effective. Maybe? John
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you're fighting in a Kickboxing match or a Full Contact Match then I'd say it would be pretty hard to pull this technique off without getting swiftly knocked in the face doing so.

But if you were doing this in a shuffle or some sort of confrontation, it's definitely applicable. You need to have some imagination though either way.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Hadouken?
Kamehameha?

If that guy's anything, it's Liu Kang's fireball.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If it's something they hadn't seen before it may work against them. That's one reason I always recommend cross training

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: Yama-Zuki Mountain Punch Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:
Bladeswinger wrote:
Nakandakari Lobato wrote:


What do you think of this technique? It is extraordinarily difficult to block. I was looking at for a picture of Jion, and I was thinking that one of the techniques would block a Yama-Zuki. We called it an inside outside block, since one hand blocks downward and sweeps across the chest as the other hand blocks upward. Looking at this picture of Jion
reminds me of the move called Monkey steals a Peach. Is it the same move? When I did a google search, all I found were silly ninja moves.


Good waza. Strike to groin/abdomen and face.The bottom one apears to come from Kan Ku Sho.Low block(gedan uke) to the front and back fist to the rear(ushiro uraken).In the kata this posture is followed up with double punches.Good stuff!


To me I wouldnt trust the top one, it looks like you need to extend yourself furthe rout then whats safe.


The context in which this waza is used is very important. Certainly not a sparring waza but in a self defence situation it would probably be effective.Also in a kata it is uaed as a frame work. It application may require slight variations.
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