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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Resources for Shinsengumi Reply with quote
Here are some online resources:

http://www.shinsengumihq.com
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Category:Shinsengumi

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Shinsengumi
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Roshigumi

http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Serizawa_Kamo
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Kondo_Isami
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Hijikata_Toshizo
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Nagakura_Shinpachi

I will be posting some articles to this research group's yahoo group shortly, so sign up.

And please tell me that some people were able to find Hillsborough's book...
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i was not able to find them in the local library, or the libary on campus that incompasses three other universities.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
i was not able to find them in the local library, or the libary on campus that incompasses three other universities.


Huh. They even have it at the library here. You shoulda bought it Just Kidding

Anyway, for anyone who can get it, this is the info:

Hillsborough, Romulus. Shinsengumi: The Shogun's Last Samurai Corps, Tuttle Publishing, 2005


I have also uploaded 2 PDFs to this group's Yahoo group, so if you don't have access, PM me with your Yahoo ID (if you don't have one, you'll need to create one to get the files) and I'll let you in. I've done some housecleaning there, so I might have accidentally removed members:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/japan-research/
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quick question, I thought we were doing the SHinsengumi this month? (look at the main page) Just Kidding
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oops. Fixed.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Re: Resources for Shinsengumi Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:

And please tell me that some people were able to find Hillsborough's book...



I reread it especially for this occasion.
I even rewatched Band Of Assassins, am watching the Taiga drama, and had my wife buy me the PS2 games 'Fuun Shinsengumi' and 'Fuun Bakumatsu-den' so I can see both sides of the story Just Kidding. Yeah, likely lots of good historical info there.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not really a huge fan of the Shinsengumi. So I don't have any of the Shinsengumi films -- which after all are films, "reel" history rather than proven real history; the myriad Shinsengumi films are no more real history than the myriad 47 Ronin films are real history.

I have Hillsborough's account of Sakamoto Ryoma's life (SAKAMOTO RYOMA: A RENAISSANCE SAMURAI). There are a few references here to the Shinsengumi, mainly as Sakamoto's "ronin hunters" who at one point, attempted to hunt him down -- but he resisted them.

I will most likely acquire Hillsborough's SHINSENGUMI book. Though I understand that many of the Shinsengumi fans don't particularly like it (maybe because his book shows the Shinsengumi in more of a true light??? Confused )

I've downloaded the articles that Kitsuno presented and I'll be reading them soon.

Because of my comparative ignorance about the Shinsengumi, I'll most likely be asking questions and reading the answers. Mainly, I'm puzzled about all the hype and "fandom" around the Shinsengumi. After all, even the famous 47 Ronin don't have a "47 Ronin Headquarters" site. But the Shinsengumi fans have their own "Shinsengumi Headquarters" site (which I've visited a few times).

There is even fan fiction, written in English, at the Shinsengumi Headquarters. I think I'm the only one that I know who has written 47 Ronin fan fiction in English (my Fuwa Kazuemon stories). Hmmm, wonder if anyone will enter a Shinsengumi story in this year's Samurai Archives Fan Fiction contest. Cool

By the way, an aside: I plan to enter my great "Fuwa Kazuemon Meets Captain Kirk" story in this year's contest. Just Kidding Just Kidding Hey, I might even write a "Fuwa Kazuemon Meets the Shinsengumi -- and Defeats Them in a Grand Duel" story. Twisted Evil After all, who cares whether they were over 150 years apart in time?? Kazuemon could go through a time machine.... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Resources for Shinsengumi Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Here are some online resources:

(online resources, snipped by WT here to save bandwidth)

I will be posting some articles to this research group's yahoo group shortly, so sign up.

And please tell me that some people were able to find Hillsborough's book...
VERY interesting articles. I read them eagerly and now I'm a little bit less ignorant on the entire subject. Cool
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:


Because of my comparative ignorance about the Shinsengumi, I'll most likely be asking questions and reading the answers. Mainly, I'm puzzled about all the hype and "fandom" around the Shinsengumi. After all, even the famous 47 Ronin don't have a "47 Ronin Headquarters" site. But the Shinsengumi fans have their own "Shinsengumi Headquarters" site (which I've visited a few times).


I have a feeling that a lot of it is because of various Anime (Roruni Kenshin or whatever - never seen it), but also probably the fact that it is an interesting story - comparing the Choshu extremists to the Shinsengumi you can't really tell who is the "bad guy" here - the Shinsengumi had the support and backing of the bakufu, and the Choshu extremists didn't really have any backing. Sure, they were "loyal" to the emperor, but even they got the boot by the emperor when they decided they'd kidnap him and force Japan to expel the foreigners. I think, at least in the case of Saito Hajime, he stayed loyal to the "ideals" of the Shinsengumi even after it wasn't feasable - even when he knew he was on the losing side and was probably going to be killed in the last stand at Aizu. Which he wasn't, surprisingly enough. It goes through the whole "rise and fall" thing to end up as the underdogs who eventually get beat.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

I could no agree more. Despite their methods, which I know many consider thug-ish, they were effective and did their jobs well. Especially after they cleaned themselves up. I am, by no means, a fanboy but I do respect them and Okita Souji is high on my list of favorite historical figures.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another source I would recommend would be Hillsborough's book RYOMA: A RENAISSANCE SAMURAI. This give some background on the Shinsengumi from the POV of one of their opponents.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Wave Tossed wrote:


Because of my comparative ignorance about the Shinsengumi, I'll most likely be asking questions and reading the answers. Mainly, I'm puzzled about all the hype and "fandom" around the Shinsengumi. After all, even the famous 47 Ronin don't have a "47 Ronin Headquarters" site. But the Shinsengumi fans have their own "Shinsengumi Headquarters" site (which I've visited a few times).


I have a feeling that a lot of it is because of various Anime (Roruni Kenshin or whatever - never seen it), but also probably the fact that it is an interesting story - comparing the Choshu extremists to the Shinsengumi you can't really tell who is the "bad guy" here - the Shinsengumi had the support and backing of the bakufu, and the Choshu extremists didn't really have any backing. Sure, they were "loyal" to the emperor, but even they got the boot by the emperor when they decided they'd kidnap him and force Japan to expel the foreigners. I think, at least in the case of Saito Hajime, he stayed loyal to the "ideals" of the Shinsengumi even after it wasn't feasable - even when he knew he was on the losing side and was probably going to be killed in the last stand at Aizu. Which he wasn't, surprisingly enough. It goes through the whole "rise and fall" thing to end up as the underdogs who eventually get beat.
In all of this hype, people tend to forget that there was another side to the anti-bakufu forces: Sakamoto Ryoma, Katsu Kaishu and all of the "abolish feudalism" people.

Sakamoto was a martyr, being assassinated for his views. What is fascinating about Sakamoto's assassination (which apparently is still unsolved) is that it could have been done by pro-bakufu forces. Or else coudl have been carried out by anti-bakufu Satsuma and/or Choshu forces who were also opposed to Sakamoto's views on abolishing feudalism.

As it turned out, in the end, Sakamoto's ideas won out. Feudalism was abolished and some democratic reforms were established. Though I do have doubts that Sakamoto would have condoned such measures as prohibiting the wearing of swords -- I think that instead, he would have wanted everyone (not just people born in the buke class) to have that privilege.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Hillsbourough Reply with quote
You really cant use Hillsbourough as history .He himself told me he writes more for dramatic effect rather than actual history because their are so many conflicting historys that often contradict each other so his goal is really to get people interested in these many colourful characters .Also Japanese History was pretty much overhauled after the restoration to suit the new Choshu powers to be (who pretty much had run of play from 1878 -1945 ).People like say Nobunaga (im a fan of him too )get a free pass despite a body count in the 1000"s while anybody who did anything against the Emperor becomes the blackest villian (Hojo,Ashikaga 1 and 2 ,all 15 Tokugawa Shoguns )
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
People like say Nobunaga (im a fan of him too )get a free pass despite a body count in the 1000"s while anybody who did anything against the Emperor becomes the blackest villian (Hojo,Ashikaga 1 and 2 ,all 15 Tokugawa Shoguns )


You can look at the Soga clan, as well. The writers of the Nihon shoki had an agenda and that came through in their fabricated accounts of earlier times. The only (almost) primary source we have on the Soga clan is anti-Soga...too bad we'll never know the truth about them.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?
I hope you aren't saying that this is a valid history source?? Confused Exclamation
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?


I have episodes 1-28 or so.

WT: I think these sort of things are useful for getting a feel for the overall history, it gives a frame of reference, even if it is mostly fake.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
shikisoku wrote:
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?


I have episodes 1-28 or so.

WT: I think these sort of things are useful for getting a feel for the overall history, it gives a frame of reference, even if it is mostly fake.
Yeah, I guess. Confused At any rate, watching movies is so much fun! Just Kidding Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
shikisoku wrote:
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?


I have episodes 1-28 or so.

WT: I think these sort of things are useful for getting a feel for the overall history, it gives a frame of reference, even if it is mostly fake.


While I love this series, I find it hilarious that it has Kondo being in the middle of EVERY SINGLE EVENT in Japan from 1853 on up and interacting in a meaningful and intimate matter with EVERY SINGLE PERSON who had the slighest connection with said events. Seeing him being a lifelong, knee slapping buddy of Sakamoto Ryoma is particularly good.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I saw some episodes as it was on in Japan when I was there - but I thought it was very disappointing and not very helpful in giving a feel of the era, unlike other taiga I've seen.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Is it not premature to call it fake without seeing it first ,at the end of every episode there was a historical travelog that took the viewer to variuous places as well as showing documents and artifacts.Also although the story was fictional the events were not the Ikedaya episode is pretty much the most historicaly acurate version to date ditto the murder of Sakamoto ,Toba Fushimi .Each episode was checked by three historians though the killings of Serizawa ,Ito and Takeda were glossed over.Anyway its always been my policy to watch something or read som ething before rtendering a judgement on it
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about pick one episode and discuss about it? Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Wicked Iemon wrote:
Is it not premature to call it fake without seeing it first ,at the end of every episode there was a historical travelog that took the viewer to variuous places as well as showing documents and artifacts.Also although the story was fictional the events were not the Ikedaya episode is pretty much the most historicaly acurate version to date ditto the murder of Sakamoto ,Toba Fushimi .Each episode was checked by three historians though the killings of Serizawa ,Ito and Takeda were glossed over.Anyway its always been my policy to watch something or read som ething before rtendering a judgement on it


Iemon, I think we've tangoed to this song before--at another place and time. No matter, what, in my opinion, the Shinsengumi Taiga was a real turn-off. It had a large following--because of its young, hearthrob stars, and because of the popularity of Shingo Katori, of boy-band SMAP fame. His portrayal of Kondo was the biggest turn-off as I couldn't take him seriously. Plus, how do you call the fact that this stupid Taiga had Kondo being old dojo friends with Ryoma-- this was never the case in real life! Also, as was pointed out by somebody else in another thread, why the heck is Kondo showing up at every major event from Perry onwards and why is he befriending every Japanese figure of varying historical importance? Is this friendliness to all and an ability to be everywhere at one time (like being on three different Japanese networks during all three major hours of prime time viewing 4 times per week) skills that were learned at Johnny's Jimusho? Please!!!Sick

And Shikisoku, if you really want to pick episodes to discuss, let me just end it all-- right here, right now. I can't bear the pain or dishonor you guys will do to the S-A by proceeding with this! Goodbye cruel world, what a long, strange trip it's been! Harakiri


Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
...if you really want to pick episodes to discuss, let me just end it all-- right here, right now. I can't bear the pain or dishonor you guys will do to the S-A by proceeding with this! Goodbye cruel world, it's been a long, strange trip it's been! Harakiri
My comment is actually directed to Shikisoku: I'm not a moderator of this particular discussion. However, I would suggest that if we're discussing TV episodes and depictions of "reel" history -- that it be done in the "Samurai Film" forum, rather than here?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
However, I would suggest that if we're discussing TV episodes and depictions of "reel" history -- that it be done in the "Samurai Film" forum, rather than here?


Well, it is in context - the validity or absolute lack of validity adds to the discussion if you can give historical reasons why it is or isn't valid.
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