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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Wave Tossed wrote:
However, I would suggest that if we're discussing TV episodes and depictions of "reel" history -- that it be done in the "Samurai Film" forum, rather than here?


Well, it is in context - the validity or absolute lack of validity adds to the discussion if you can give historical reasons why it is or isn't valid.
Haven't we had this discussion before? I know we have had this discussion on the Samurai Archives email list. There are real problems with comparing real history with "reel" history.

I can see discussions about how "reel" history can confuse and distract from the study of real history. I can also see worth in discussing individual films/TV shows as having been well-researched and having been honest attempts at reproducing real history.

However, when a TV episode shows Kondo Isami and Sakamoto Ryoma as having been old fencing buddies at the neighborhood dojo -- then we're getting into discussion of fiction ("reel" history) rather than real history.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:

However, when a TV episode shows Kondo Isami and Sakamoto Ryoma as having been old fencing buddies at the neighborhood dojo -- then we're getting into discussion of fiction ("reel" history) rather than real history.


Are you really going to make me say "Duh!"? If someone didn't know that they weren't best dojo buddies, it would be useful in the context of historical discussion to list the reasons that would be impossible. The discussion would go like this:

"They couldn't have known eachother because at this time in history Kondo was here, here and here, and friends with a, b, c. Ryoma was here, here and here, and studied this style of kenjutsu, so they couldn't have been friends..." and *BAM* everyone just learned something.
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Wave Tossed
Tsushima no Kami
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kitsuno, I would agree with you here. Discussing how "reel" history diverges from real history is valid here.

It's just that we need to be very clear here. In too many cases, especially with the Shinsengumi -- also with Miyamoto Musashi, 47 Ronin, and other such subjects -- too many people say "I know what happened, because I saw [such and such film]." We just need to be cautious.

To discuss how a certain Taiga TV episode of the Shinsengumi events diverges (or most likely diverges) from real history is valid. However, when it comes down to analyzing particular episodes, then unless it's specifically about comparing it with real history -- such a discussion would belong in the Film Forum. Just my suggestion, that's all.
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msr.iaidoka
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno,

Got to love those random bits of historical knowledge. Smile


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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Shinsengumi taiga Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
...if you really want to pick episodes to discuss, let me just end it all-- right here, right now. I can't bear the pain or dishonor you guys will do to the S-A by proceeding with this! Goodbye cruel world, it's been a long, strange trip it's been! Harakiri
My comment is actually directed to Shikisoku: I'm not a moderator of this particular discussion. However, I would suggest that if we're discussing TV episodes and depictions of "reel" history -- that it be done in the "Samurai Film" forum, rather than here?


Did I say something like the darama was historically accurate?
No.

It's just simply enjoy the movie and find what is accurate/inaccurate since there is not much English sources.
So that would help to stop spreading false informations.
I was shocked so many Shinsengumi fans were believing "Aku Soku Zan" as a fact.

Or should I say "How many of us have Shinsengumi Shiryoshu?" it's a book of primary souces, written in classic Japanese and yomikudashi Chinese, and it cost 10000yen.
Does it work?

Anyway, it seems not many of us have the videos, so just forget about it.
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wicked iemon
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reel History Reply with quote
Dont want to throw a spanner in the works but ,Again according to the Daily Yomiuri in 2004 ,NHK fact chekers came up with records from 3 dojo's that showed that Kondo ,Sakamoto and Katsura all trained at three seperate dojo's but within a two block raidius of each other in the early 1850's (The article can be found on the SHQ web site ).This was the reason Koki Mitani wrote this into the taiga drama .Did they meet ??who knows but it does open the probablity of at least knowing each other by sight or reputation among dojo circles
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Tsushima no Kami
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Reel History Reply with quote
Wicked Iemon wrote:
Dont want to throw a spanner in the works but ,Again according to the Daily Yomiuri in 2004 ,NHK fact chekers came up with records from 3 dojo's that showed that Kondo ,Sakamoto and Katsura all trained at three seperate dojo's but within a two block raidius of each other in the early 1850's (The article can be found on the SHQ web site ).This was the reason Koki Mitani wrote this into the taiga drama .Did they meet ??who knows but it does open the probablity of at least knowing each other by sight or reputation among dojo circles
Just because they once trained in dojos that were within two blocks of each other -- that certainly is NOT at all the same as Hondo and Sakamoto being fencing buddies in the same dojo. It's quite possible for dojos to have been rivals to each other, even if they were in close proximity to each other.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Reel History Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
Just because they once trained in dojos that were within two blocks of each other -- that certainly is NOT at all the same as Hondo and Sakamoto being fencing buddies in the same dojo. It's quite possible for dojos to have been rivals to each other, even if they were in close proximity to each other.


Well, I think what WI means is that the drama showing them as "friends" was a fictional addition that came from the fact that they were geographically close, and may have known eachother. The "friendship" thing is probably fake, but it was extrapolated from a factual event for dramatic purposes. i.e. it was a dramatization based on fact.

Don't you know the old saying "every fairy tale has a grain of truth" or "comes from a real event" or whatever it is?
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
How many of us have NHK drama Shinsengumi! video?


I'm still working my way through this, and find it very entertaining (albeit still inaccurate in spots). I just finished watching what may be the best episode (for me, at least) of a Taiga ever produced, #28 (I think)-the Ikedaya Incident. The lead up to the event is well done and gripping, conveying the suspense and gravity of the situation. The actual raid on the inn (which takes up a huge chunk of the episode's running time) is flat out amazing. I'm not really a big fan of movie swordfights (seen one, seen 'em all-move it along and get back to the story) but this one has to be the closest thing to actually witnessing what a mass swordfight would look like. None of the dramactic staring down contests with close ups of shuffling feet followed by a one stroke kill stuff here. They also don't do the standard convention of having the bad guys wait their turn and rush the good guys one at a time. Nope, this is a glorious celebration of the chaos of real combat. The kinetic pace of the editing and the (for a Taiga) fantastic cinematography never let the pace slacken. After the battle is over, one is left amazed that Kondo's group was able to pull off this (as Obenjo put it) incredibly ballsy and reckless raid...not to mention after all that, the body count is under 10.
They even use Sakamoto Ryoma (who up to now has pretty much been portrayed as a scatter-brained buffoon) to good effect, as he sadly laments what a waste the whole thing was and how it will just bring more disaster to both sides.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have asked kitsuno to move some threads to Bakumatsu topic.
So we can keep the discussions there.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How about I leave them in here for the next topic (Ryoma)?
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's fine with me but I am not sure how Ryoma fans think. Very Happy
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