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Dennis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:03 pm    Post subject: Stupid questions Reply with quote
If the Shinsengumi were employed to provide "police services" to Kyoto, who or what supplied security to the city previously? How was order maintained in the larger cities c. 1860?

And if there was some form of organized security, what happened to them to cause the need for the Shinsengumi?

My apologies if the questions are abysmally dumb.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Stupid questions Reply with quote
Dennis wrote:
If the Shinsengumi were employed to provide "police services" to Kyoto, who or what supplied security to the city previously? How was order maintained in the larger cities c. 1860?

And if there was some form of organized security, what happened to them to cause the need for the Shinsengumi?

My apologies if the questions are abysmally dumb.


Kyoto, like every other city of the times, had a large and well organized police force under the control of the local Han lord (the police were generally not under the direct control of the Tokugawa). However, with the increasing numbers and lawless activities of ronin thugs under the control of the provincial lords (the Hans of Choshu, Satsuma, Tosa, Mito being the prime offenders), the Bakufu found it necessary to bring in extra security to ensure the safety of the city (and more importantly, to protect the Bakufu's political interests by preventing the ronin from kidnapping the Emperor or 'protecting' him). One of the Tokugawa three branch families, the Matsudaira of Aizu Han, had their lord appointed Military Governor of Kyoto by the Shogun to deal with the situation. When the founders of the Shinsengumi decided to withdraw from the Roshigumi and stay behind when the Roshi returned to Edo, they offered their services to the Matsudaira, who employed them. It might be helpful to think of the Matsudaira and Shinsengumi as 'calling out the National Guard'-just an extra layer of security brought on by an abnormal situation (and under the direct control of the Bakufu, which the police weren't).
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
When was the obanyaku (going off of memory...) as a system dissolved? Did it last past the Kamakura period?
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Basically Kyoto Shoshidai京都所司代 and Machi Bugyo.
Kyoto Shugoshoku which the Shinsengumi belonged to was created in Bakumatsu.
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nagaeyari wrote:
When was the obanyaku (going off of memory...) as a system dissolved? Did it last past the Kamakura period?


Nope, it was no longer in force after the Hojo forces were driven out of Kyoto. Since the Ashikaga moved their seat of power to Kyoto, they didn't see the need for their vassals to perform rotating guard duty in the capital-they saw to the security of the city themselves (which of course led to the city being virtually destroyed in the Onin War).
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Dennis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Stupid questions Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:

...text deleted... It might be helpful to think of the Matsudaira and Shinsengumi as 'calling out the National Guard'-just an extra layer of security brought on by an abnormal situation (and under the direct control of the Bakufu, which the police weren't).


The light goes on. I understand now. Thank you for the background perspective. This is all starting to make sense to me.
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