Register :: Log in :: Profile   


nambantetsu
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: nambantetsu Reply with quote
Hi All, I could really use some help with a question about foreign iron in Japan. Documentation shows the importation of iron from the Netherlands started with the ship 'de Liefde' in 1600. Iron cannon started to be cast in Europe mid-16th cent. so it is likely that this Dutch ship ran bronze cannon since casting iron cannon was still more problematic than bronze at this time. Can someone verify this? Did any other ships arrive having iron cannon? Also with the Dutch still having access to trade with Japan after the closure, when did the process of casting iron cannon reach Japan, if at all? I need some source reference for this please. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Forum Shogun



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 9481
Location: Honolulu, HI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: nambantetsu Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Documentation shows the importation of iron from the Netherlands started with the ship 'de Liefde' in 1600.


William Adams' ship?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ltdomer98
Daijo Daijin
Daijo Daijin
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 5456
Location: Washington (the one with all the politicians)

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: nambantetsu Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Documentation shows the importation of iron from the Netherlands started with the ship 'de Liefde' in 1600.


As Kitsuno points out, that was the ship that was shipwrecked in Japan, carrying Will Adams and his Dutch crew. I wouldn't call that "importation"--the ship was confiscated, though if I recall correctly the Dutch crew was eventually compensated.

I'll have to check some books, but I don't believe too many cannon were imported, period.
_________________
Bring it on, laddie 'Domer
The Sengoku Field Manual Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: nambantetsu Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Hi All, I could really use some help with a question about foreign iron in Japan. Documentation shows the importation of iron from the Netherlands started with the ship 'de Liefde' in 1600. Iron cannon started to be cast in Europe mid-16th cent. so it is likely that this Dutch ship ran bronze cannon since casting iron cannon was still more problematic than bronze at this time. Can someone verify this? Did any other ships arrive having iron cannon? Also with the Dutch still having access to trade with Japan after the closure, when did the process of casting iron cannon reach Japan, if at all? I need some source reference for this please. John



Turnbull's got some good info in his Osprey Osaka Campaign book, using records from the various Western trading companies. Most were bronze, although Ieyasu ordered some western cannon in 1614 and 1615, and at least one of his iron guns was cast in Japan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:20 pm    Post subject: nambantetsu Reply with quote
Hi, Thanks for the interest. Here is some info that some of us need confirmed. Were the cannon on the ship bronze or iron? It just seems early for iron cannon on this ship. I sure could use some info on those iron cannon Tokugawa Ieyasu commissioned. This would have ramifications in a few armament areas. Thanks, John




On April 19, 1600 the Dutch ship "De Liefde" reached the island of Kyushu with
only 24 or 25 survivors from a total of 110 people. They are in a terrible condition.
Only 5 men were able to stand on their feet. From these survivors, 6 men died
shortly after. An inventory was made the next day by the local authorities.
Beside the normal trading goods 18 cannons were found and 500 guns, 5000
bullets of cast iron, gunpowder and so on.
This was the first contact between Japan and the Dutch. The remaining survivors
were free to go where they wanted.
Their ship " De Liefde " was confiscated by the Japanese. However, at the first
trip sailing under Japanese flag the ship was wrecked in a storm.
One of the survivors was the helmsman William Adams. An Englishman by birth,
but sailing in Dutch service. He gained confidence from the Japanese and later
in the year 1600 he and the survivors of " De Liefde " were of great help for the
Shogun TOKUGAWA Ieyasu during the battle of SEKIGAHARA.

Battle of SEKIGAHARA.
This decisive battle on September 15, 1600 ( on the ancient Japanese calendar,
October 21 on the Gregorian (solar) calendar ) cleared the path to the Shogunate
for TOKUGAWA Ieyasu. Though it would take three more years for TOKUGAWA
Ieyasu to consolidate his position of power over the Toyotomi clan and the
daimyo. ( = Local Lords )
SEKIGAHARA is widely considered to be the unofficial beginning of the Tokugawa
bakufu, the last shogunate to control Japan.

During this decisive battle several records mention the use of cannons by
TOKUGAWA Ieyasu.

One source indicates that the 18 cannons coming from " De Liefde " were
used with the help of the Dutch gunmen. ( *1 )
A 2nd source indicates the usage of cannons coming from " De Liefde ". ( *2 )
A 3rd source mentions: "and one of his generals, Shima Katsutake, (Sakon)
was wounded, but his unit was equipped with several cannons, and managed
to repel this attack." ( *3 )
A 4th source suggests the usage of the cannons from "De Liefde "during
this battle. ( *4 )

For TOKUGAWA Ieyasu, (家康) this might have been a reason to pay special
attention to these cannons, made of 'Foreign steel', or Namban Tetsu.
This all took place in Keicho 5, ( 1600 ).
In the same year YUKI Hideyasu, TOKUGAWA Ieyasu's second son and founder
of the Echizen Matsudaira family went to Echizen to establish a clan in
Kitanosho. He patronized a sword smith called Shimosaka Ichizaemon.
Later around the 11th or 12th year of Keicho ( 1606 of 1607 ) this
smith was summoned by TOKUGAWA Ieyasu and Hidetada, the first two
shoguns of the Tokugawa Regime, and lived in Edo to make swords for them.
Owing to his contribution, he was permitted by TOKUGAWA Ieyasu to use
YASU, 康 one of the two letters composing the founder
shogun's name, and changed his name to YASUTSUGU. 康継 He was
also given then the privilege to include the three-leaf Aoi crest. ( = Tokugawa
family crest represented by the hollyhock plant)



And maybe it was on his order that Yasutsugu, the first generation, had to
make swords from this Namban steel. Maybe steel from a one of the weapons
coming from "De Liefde" ?

It is for sure however that TOKUGAWA Ieyasu was in the possession of the
cannons from " De Liefde ". Naval cannons were used during the siege from
Shimabara in 1638.

We will never know for sure what steel was used by Yasutsugu. But Namban
Tetsu must have had a special meaning for all that fought at Sekigahara.

This could be one of the reasons for the availability of Namban Tetsu in Japan.
Some other sources however indicate that: ."Namban-tetsu was a very precious
imported iron in ancient Japan".
Therefore we studied the records from the V.O.C. ( = Verenigde Oostindische
Compagnie ) to see if iron or steel was mentioned for trading. But we could
not find a positive answer on our question.
When the ships were leaving Europe the cargo was mostly bars of silver,
some gold and copper coins. Trading goods were textile like linen and wool
to be sold in Japan, China, Persia and to rich traders in India.
So the ships left partly unloaded to Asia. No mentioning of steel and iron.

But when ships are leaving partly unloaded, what was used for Ballast?
( Ballast: Nautical, any heavy material carried temporarily or permanently
in a vessel to provide desired draft and stability. )

We raised this question to the "Nederlands Scheepvaartmuseum" in
Amsterdam. A negative answer was given. ' No iron was used by the V.O.C.
for ballast because of the rust '. ( *5 )
But this did not stop us from doing more investigation.

So we started to look at the various websites about the V.O.C. and on one
of them we found the information we were looking for about ballast:
' Ballast is used to put weight to a ship, like cannons and anchors.
Furthermore gravel and sand was used'. ( *6 )

From the "Batavia Werf" also a positive confirmation was received
about the ballast on V.O.C. ships sailing to the East.
The ballast used for V.O.C. ships sailing on the route from The Netherlands
to Batavia consisted mainly of stones and other building materials. Also
lead was used and certainly also (old) iron. ( *7 )

We found our definite proof of iron used as ballast when we looked through
the wreckage report from the 'Geldermalsen'. The description of the
cargo reads: 'The boxes with chinaware came from the bottom of the ship,
directly placed on the ballast of gravel, blocks of iron and tropical wood.'( *8 ).

Because the Dutch by means of the V.O.C. were the only foreigners allowed
entering Japan, first through Hirado and later through Deshima (出島 literally
'protruding island') ( *9 ) in the bay of Nagasaki the only possibility for steel
entering Japan is by these ships.
Overall, 606 Dutch ships arrived at Deshima during two centuries of settlement,
from 1641 to 1847. ( *10 )






It can also explain why sword smiths from the Hizen province like Hizen Yukihiro
began experimenting with Oranda Tetsu ( = Holland steel and Dutch manufacturing
techniques) under the sword smiths Hisatsugu and Tanenaga in Nagasaki.
Deshima was located in the Bay of Nagasaki. ( *11 )

Because of the sort of trading, silk in exchange for silver and later for copper
it is obvious that when trading was very successful silver and copper bars were used
for replacing the ballast of sand, stones or pieces of iron. This 'old' ballast was left in
Japan. And most likely some merchants sold the pieces of iron to sword smiths.

This could explain the importance and the availability from Namban Tetsu in
Japan in the 17th and 18th century.
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kitsuno
Forum Shogun
Forum Shogun



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 9481
Location: Honolulu, HI

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm curious about what all of this vast information on various disparate topics over the past week or two is for. If you mentioned it at one point, I guess I missed it. Or maybe I'm thinking of Templar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:43 pm    Post subject: cause juste Reply with quote
Hi Kitsuno, It is a relevant to a group of us that collect Japanese swords and other related metalwork. There are swords marked nambantetsu as well as tsuba. How this iron was imported is an important piece of the history of such items. It is good to know why such and such caused change in manufacture. Among the Nihontophile there is interest in other armaments. The heraldry and battle information is for Templar. Thanks, John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: nambantetsu Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
One source indicates that the 18 cannons coming from " De Liefde " were
used with the help of the Dutch gunmen. ( *1 )
A 2nd source indicates the usage of cannons coming from " De Liefde ". ( *2 )
A 3rd source mentions: "and one of his generals, Shima Katsutake, (Sakon)
was wounded, but his unit was equipped with several cannons, and managed
to repel this attack." ( *3 )
A 4th source suggests the usage of the cannons from "De Liefde "during
this battle. ( *4 )


What are the sources for the cannon from De Liefde being used at Sekigahara by the Tokugawa? I've never seen Ieyasu as having deployed any at Sekigahara in Japanese sources, and the Western sources all seem to trace back to a vague mention in a Jesuit letter. Ishida did deploy cannon, since he was established on the battlefield for a bit of time, but the Tokugawa forces only arrived very early in the morning of the battle (and those cannon would have been a pain to transport that quickly).


Last edited by Tatsunoshi on Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Tatsunoshi, Here are the references as per article.

( *1 ) "Dat TOKUGAWA Ieyasu toen een schitterende overwinning behaalde,
was voor een groot deel te danken aan de achttien kanonnen van de Liefde,
die van boord waren gehaald en door Hollandse kanonniers bediend, onder
de vijand grote verwoestingen aanrichtten.
http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Aad/deshima.htm

( *2 ) Volgens sommige bronnen heeft TOKUGAWA Ieyasu ook gebruik gemaakt
van de kanonnen van het Nederlandse schip De Liefde maar helemaal zeker
is dit niet.
http://www.uchiyama.nl/ngsekigahara.htm

( *3 ) Source: " Samurai, an Illustrated History" by MITSUO KURE, page 104.

( *4 ) "In het spoor van de Liefde" page 42 and page 128.
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is a rough translation of the pertinent part of #1. My translation may be not exact. John



Shortly the surviving Dutchmen were to prove a large opportunity to provide service to the Japanese government. The Shogun was in those days the powerful Ieyasu Tokugawa. Ieyasu Tokugawa had however powerful antagonists. In order to break their power, Ieyasu Tokugawa in October 1600 had a decisive battle. That Ieyasu Tokugawa gained a superb victory then, was due for a large part to the eighteen guns of the Liefde, which had been obtained and manned by Dutch gunners , the enemy received large casualties.
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである


Last edited by shin no sen on Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is the pertinent part of # 2 which seems less certain. The other 2 I can not access. The question I have really is did this ship have iron cannon? Did it have iron ballast? Was this the first large source of Nambantetsu?

Other LEADERS escaped but after a couple days were found and were killed. According to some sources Tokugawa Ieyasu had used the guns of the Dutch ship Liefde but this is not entirely certain. Ieyasu's son, Hidetada, still came with his army but then the battle has already expired.
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
In order to break their power, Ieyasu Tokugawa in October 1600 had a decisive battle. That Ieyasu Tokugawa gained a superb victory then, was due for a large part to the eighteen guns of the Liefde, which had been obtained and manned by Dutch gunners , the enemy received large casualties.


Let me get this straight...this source is claiming that not only did Ieyasu field Dutch guns at Sekigahara, but that they were manned by Dutch gunners?!?!?!?!? Whoa...no way whatsoever.

Anyway, this might answer your question. The book 'The Dutch Discovery Of Japan' by Dirk Jan Barreveld (which is full of errors, but still helpful in gaining an understanding of Dutch trade) states that a report filed by a Jesuit sent to inspect the ship says that the ship had '19 pieces of guns made of bronze' (other sources give the number as 18 or 26).
From Turnbull's Osaka book-Ieyasu had 10 European cannon at the battles of Osaka in 1614-15. 5 were Dutch made 'Ishibaya' cannons (which fired shot ranging from 12 lbs to 35-40 lbs-it's unclear which type Ieyasu had, though). These were likely from the cannon taken from DeLiefde. The other 5 were bought from the English East India Company and were invoiced by Richard Cocks on December 5, 1614. They included 4 culverins (17.5 lbs) and one saker (5.5 lbs). Out of about 300 artillery pieces Ieyasu fielded at Osaka, these were the only heavy siege guns apart from one Japanese gun. This was the 'Shinbatsuji' gun, which was made by Shibatsuji Ryuemon Sukenobu. It was about 11 feet long with a 90 mm bore, and fired shot about the same size as small Dutch cannon. Unfortunately, it's not noted what they're made of-the picture of the Japanese gun (which is at Yasukuni) looks like it was bronze. My Japanese books would likely have this info, but they're not here Sad.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ltdomer98
Daijo Daijin
Daijo Daijin
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 5456
Location: Washington (the one with all the politicians)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Samurai William, p.91, states that the Liefde's cannon were bronze.
_________________
Bring it on, laddie 'Domer
The Sengoku Field Manual Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Samurai William, p.91, states that the Liefde's cannon were bronze.


Where did the cannons end up? Do they still have them in a museum somewhere and if so...anyone know where to get some pics? That'd be cool to see. I believe I heard somewhere they were also used at Osaka too... is that true?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:12 pm    Post subject: iron Reply with quote
Hi, Tatsunoshi, Beautiful that is just what I/we needed. That was the opinion that we had, in that it was too early for iron cannon to be on that vessel. Itdomer thanks for the other source. You see, some group cites sources that state something that is incorrect and it is like a tsunami. I appreciate your work, but to tidy up the question, is there a source date for when the first legitimate trade iron (nambantetsu) was imported? I do not think iron cannon were ever cast in Japan either, is this correct? Thanks a lot, John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ltdomer98
Daijo Daijin
Daijo Daijin
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 5456
Location: Washington (the one with all the politicians)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you can pick up a copy of Samurai William, it goes into great detail about all the trade that happened in Asia, and probably has your answer. I can try to check if I've got time, but it won't be until tonight.
_________________
Bring it on, laddie 'Domer
The Sengoku Field Manual Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: books Reply with quote
Hi Itdomer, I appreciate all the effort. I shall look into getting that book. With all the references needed in my field of study I shall have to get a second job. Crying or Very sad And this is peripheral for the most part but turning out to be increasingly relevant. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
Samurai William, p.91, states that the Liefde's cannon were bronze.


Where did the cannons end up? Do they still have them in a museum somewhere and if so...anyone know where to get some pics? That'd be cool to see. I believe I heard somewhere they were also used at Osaka too... is that true?


5 of them were used at Osaka, per my prior post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: ballast Reply with quote
Hi All, So now that we have documentation that the cannon carried by the Liefde were bronze what were the projectiles made from? Were they iron cannonballs or at this time still stone? Tokugawa's cannon used what? This would leave only the documentation of iron ballast being abandoned as source material for nambantetsu at this early time. Apparently, swords carrying the mark 'nambantetsu' were predominately from the latter part of the 17th cent. in the Osaka, Edo areas. This would tend to refute the above declaration that Ieyasu commanded Yasutsugu to forge swords from Nambantetsu c.1606 or 1607. I will try and find sorces for this. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである


Last edited by shin no sen on Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:43 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ltdomer98
Daijo Daijin
Daijo Daijin
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 5456
Location: Washington (the one with all the politicians)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:22 am    Post subject: Re: ballast Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
This would tend to refute the above declaration that Ieyasu commanded Yasutsugu to forge swords from Nambantetsu c.1703. I will try and find sorces for this. John


Ieyasu couldn't command anything in 1703, as he died in 1615.
_________________
Bring it on, laddie 'Domer
The Sengoku Field Manual Blog
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OOps,I meant 1606 or 1607 as per the above data. I shall correct it. Thanks, John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Yasutsugu Reply with quote
Hi All, Well it seems that he was the first swordsmith to use nambantetsu.
Around the 11th or 12th year of this same period of Keicho (1606-1607), Yasutsugu's fame reached the point that he was called to Edo (Tokyo) to share his time with Tokugawa Ieyasu. About this time Yasutsugu was given the privilege of using the character "Yasu" from Tokugawa Ieyasu's name. Thus he changed his name to Yasutsugu from that point on. About the same time ( some feel it was a few years later) he was given the additional privilege of carving the Hollyhock crest ( Aoi mon) on his blades. These privileges were given in perpetuity to Yasutsugu and his descendents. Thus the Yasutsugu swordsmiths became the kaji of the Tokugawa Family.

Earlier I raised the question of what made Yasutsugu's fame and fortune seem to spread disproportionately to his skill when we compare him to some of his contemporary smiths such as Umetada Myoju and Horikawa Kunihiro. About this time, non oriental foreigners made their presence felt in Japan for the first time. Things from the "West" were new, exciting, strange, and highly sought after. Yasutsugu was one of the first advocates of using namban tetsu (foreign steel) in his swords. He proudly incised this fact on the nakago of his later works. It was new, it was exciting, and there is no doubt that this use of foreign steel helped spread his fame. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Yasutsugu Reply with quote
There's no mention of any iron aboard (ballast or otherwise)-except for quite a few barrels of nails. Barrels of nails were big sellers for Western traders dealing with Japan.
I don't know much about the sword forging process, but would it have been possible to melt down barrels of nails to make swords with?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
niitsu kakunoshin wrote:
ltdomer98 wrote:
Samurai William, p.91, states that the Liefde's cannon were bronze.


Where did the cannons end up? Do they still have them in a museum somewhere and if so...anyone know where to get some pics? That'd be cool to see. I believe I heard somewhere they were also used at Osaka too... is that true?


5 of them were used at Osaka, per my prior post.


Embarassed Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
niitsu kakunoshin
Gunshi
Gunshi
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 805
Location: Yomi

PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Yasutsugu Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
There's no mention of any iron aboard (ballast or otherwise)-except for quite a few barrels of nails. Barrels of nails were big sellers for Western traders dealing with Japan.
I don't know much about the sword forging process, but would it have been possible to melt down barrels of nails to make swords with?


I would think that would be pretty unlikely. I'm no expert, but I know what kind of raw metal they usually use. I would think the quality of the nails would make them undesirable. Wouldn't it be more likely that the nails be used as guns or ammo for guns?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group