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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Katana sizes Reply with quote
I was wondering if a few experienced Nihonto people could tell me if this sword is large, small, or average:

A length of 1.82 meters, with a saya width of 18 centimeters.

I don't really know the 'average' dimensions of a katana, but I'm wondering if these measurements were mentioned because the swords is particularly large or something. Although, thinking about it, it sounds freakin' huge.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The length is fairly average, it is about 2 hsaku 5 sun 0 bu but are you sure the saya was 7 inches wide?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
The length is fairly average, but are you sure the saya was 7 inches wide?


It says: 大刀は長さ一間、鞘の幅は五~六寸もあった。

The daito had a length of 1 ken (1.8 meters) (over six feet long - that doesn't sound average to me) and the saya was between 5 and 6 sun (15-18 centimeters).

Actually, that sounds bloody huge, over six shaku if you do the math.


Last edited by kitsuno on Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oops, lol meters yeah....a....that is huge. That would be an odachi. See the nodachi thread. And oyu mean the daito had a lenght of 1 ken right?
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
Oops, lol meters yeah....a....that is huge. That would be an odachi. See the nodachi thread. And oyu mean the daito had a lenght of 1 ken right?


yeah, "daito" (fixed it) - so as the sword gets longer, does the blade width get wider and wider, or does it just get longer without gaining width?
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is prettywide for any blade. But usualy what happens is the blade gets wide to a ceratin degree, but that only happends to keep it structurally stable. If you get to wide of a blade, not only is it hard to manipuate, but it willbe easily broken due to being streched out so much.

Some body check me on that, nodachi.odachi are o my specialty.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Katana sizes Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
I was wondering if a few experienced Nihonto people could tell me if this sword is large, small, or average:

A length of 1.82 meters, with a saya width of 18 centimeters.

I don't really know the 'average' dimensions of a katana, but I'm wondering if these measurements were mentioned because the swords is particularly large or something. Although, thinking about it, it sounds freakin' huge.

There are swords made to that length, but usually for temple/shrine offerings and not for any practical military application.

Sword Measurements
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm

No-dachi Info
http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/nodachi.html

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:

It says: 大刀は長さ一間、鞘の幅は五~六寸もあった。


Hi Kitsuno. Would be interesting to know sources and
context in which the lenght is given to properly
understand the meaning. The lenght of a japanese
blade (nagasa) traditionally is given considering the
lenght of the straight line ideally joining the tip
with the "Munemachi", the point in which the back
of the blade ends and the back of the tang begins,
omitting the whole tang (handle) lenght.
If we see at your measurements this way, it is even
huger *but* with a more belivable lenght/width
ratio.

EDIT : in different periods we find different
"Funbari", width at the habakimoto (near the tang).
Period of the balde is another variable to consider
when judging lenght/width ratio.


Accounts of mitycal or impossible blades
exists, but watching at the following ones I firmly
believe that everything I ear *might* be possible :

newly made Odachi :


Gaikokujin Sensei "Hyakutake" Colin using ancient
Odachi/Nodachi


Votive dagger :

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Last edited by Tsubame1 on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:43 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi, FWIW, An article I read by the fellow holding the odachi states that when attacking dwellings this type of sword was used to gain entrance by cutting through shogi. John
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
kitsuno wrote:

It says: 大刀は長さ一間、鞘の幅は五~六寸もあった。


Hi Kitsuno. Would be interesting to know sources and
context in which the lenght is given to properly
understand the meaning.


It is in the shinchokoki - it was Arakawa Yojuro's daito. He was shot off his horse with an arrow during the battle of sannoyama-akatsuka and the enemy grabbed him by the feet and the saya to drag him away to take his head (and probably his huge sword), but his allies grabbed him by the head and shoulders and eventually won the tug of war. I think this was around 1558 or so.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey, I remeber that threaqd about the first guy, and I feel sorry for him to.....lol.
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It does say that the width of the saya was about 15-18 centimeters - what is the typical saya-blade ratio? How much larger do saya tend to be in width than the actual blade? That could give an idea how wide the blade actually was. He rode into battle with it, so this sword must have been for practical military application - since he was on a horse, maybe the longer blade was for better reach while on horseback?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don’t have my swords here with me in Korea, but from memory the average width of a katana is roughly 3 to 3.5 centimeters. A wide katana would be around 4 centimeters. I have many nihonto references and have never seen a katana even a 1/3 the width that you mention. Plus, I would image trying to forge such a monstrosity would be especially difficult to accomplish as well as being an immense waste of steel.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ranger wrote:
I don’t have my swords here with me in Korea, but from memory the average width of a katana is roughly 3 to 3.5 centimeters. A wide katana would be around 4 centimeters. I have many nihonto references and have never seen a katana even a 1/3 the width that you mention. Plus, I would image trying to forge such a monstrosity would be especially difficult to accomplish as well as being an immense waste of steel.


The saya was what measures 15-18 centimeters, so I was wondering if it is typical to have a lot of empty space in the saya for the actual blade.

The term used is "haba" 「幅」 So I assume it means the width of the saya from front to back, rather than the circumference.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saya's are normally formed fitted to the blade. Very little play is allowed in the saya. The woodcarver may allow some play in the scabbard if its intended destination is a dryer less humid locale (the wood would shrink around the blade).
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It does say that the saya was adorned with silver and gold, I wonder if these were maybe thick bands around the saya - that detail must have been mentioned for a reason.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well that could be a couple of things. Most likely was what you called rings or bands with is part of the koshirae. This style of koshirae is referred to as handachi such as below:



It is possibel that this detail was part of the laquering on the saya. Before the Edo period, showing rank and status was offten done through koshirae.

Or it could just be the kojiri, or the end cap on the saya that was adorned as such.
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
By the way the pic I posted is not realy handachi koshirae. Again refer to the NOdachi thread to see what I am talking about. The odachi has handachi koshirae.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have absolutely nothing to add, but figured I'd comment anyways. It's a trend that I've seen around here lately, and I didn't want to be left out. After all, if I don't comment, then soon enough Niitsu Kakunoshin will catch my postcount... Shocked
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man i know what you mean, he just popped up out of know where with 400 odd posts, it taken me since the forum to get, of wait this is my 600 post!

Party time! Happy Dance Head banging
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Happy 600th!

(Haha! Another silly weapons thread successfully hijacked! My dastardly work here is done! Naughty naughty
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
(You want to see hijacked?)

That emoticon is not right it needs a cigar hey there is a great one:

"waht to you get when you cross a rini with an elephant?"
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:

"waht to you get when you cross a rini with an elephant?"


An "elerini"?
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rikoseishin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
(I hope you are joking I doubt it )

Ellaphino Naughty naughty
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rikoseishin wrote:
(I hope you are joking I doubt it )

Ellaphino Naughty naughty



...So what the $$%*&# is a "rini"? And no, I don't get the joke.
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