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Zarnik
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:27 am    Post subject: Kagemusha Reply with quote
I just wonder if anyone has seen this movie. Its about the war during the civil war in japan.

Its from 1991 I think, and I cant say I enjoyed it. Are all samurai movies like this?

Ive seen "The last samurai" and "Kagemusha" The last samurai was a great movie, but I think Kagemusha suck. Are all old samurai movies like Kagemusha?
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zarnik, what didn't you like about Kagemusha? It's kinda hard to answer your question if we don't know what you didn't like about it Wink

Oh, and you might want to keep your text the default size. Using smaller text tends to make it hard to read.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Kagemusha Reply with quote
Zarnik wrote:
I just wonder if anyone has seen this movie. Its about the war during the civil war in japan.

Its from 1991 I think, and I cant say I enjoyed it. Are all samurai movies like this?

Ive seen "The last samurai" and "Kagemusha" The last samurai was a great movie, but I think Kagemusha suck. Are all old samurai movies like Kagemusha?


Two well-made films that belong to two different categories.

Kagemusha was made by one of the greatest filmmakers. A historical drama inspired by historical figures and actual events, made by a Japanese director.

The Last Samurai was very well-made, but it's a pure fantasy film made by Hollywood. With 'mythical' 16th century Sengoku Period samurai fighting the 19th century Meiji period Imperial Army. The treatment of 'history' in the film very similar to 'Xena: Warrior Princess'.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man, Kagemusha is one of my favorite films of all time. On my top twenty list, Kurosawa has two.


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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Kagemusha Reply with quote
Zarnik wrote:
I just wonder if anyone has seen this movie. Its about the war during the civil war in japan.

Its from 1991 I think, and I cant say I enjoyed it. Are all samurai movies like this?

Ive seen "The last samurai" and "Kagemusha" The last samurai was a great movie, but I think Kagemusha suck. Are all old samurai movies like Kagemusha?


Kurosawa movies aren't really typical old samurai movies, his epics at least (Seven Samurai, Ran, Kagemusha). They are quite long and character driven, which isn't for everyone.

The 'typical' old samurai movie would probably be the Edo period ronin movies. Kurosawa made a few of these himself that were excellent (Sanjuro and Yojimbo), but there are countless others that you might enjoy more.

As for the Last Samurai, well, if you approach it as a fantasy movie then it's pretty enjoyable. I find it hard not to groan at all the historical inaccuracies - as well as pretty much every scene involving Cruise - but it's visually quite nice.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Personally I enjoyed Kagemusha quite a bit, but then again I am a huge Nobunaga history buff. I loved Daisuke Ryu as Nobunaga in this film. I can see how it might not be for everyone. Personally I absolutely loved the emotional transformation of Nakadai's character from loathing Shingen to willing to die for the Takeda.

I'm not really all that fond of Tom Cruise's The Last Samurai (not to be confused with the movie of the same name from japan). I too groaned at the many inaccuracies in the film. If there is one good thing that came about from this movie is many americans are now aware of Watanabe Ken and to a lesser degree Sanada Hiroyuki. And this helps open the doors for domestic DVD companies to justify releasing his older material from japan here in the states.

Before The Last Samurai and Memoirs of a Geisha not many in the states had heard of Watanabe Ken. If it takes americans making bad excuses for chanbara (The Last Samurai and Kill Bill) to get companies here to release films by Watanabe Ken and Chiba Shinichi then so be it. It's just too bad that Tanba Testuro, Wakayama Tomisaburo, Ichikawa Raizo and Katsu Shintaro have passed on and can not take part in the uprising of japanese stars here in the states.

Perhaps someday more of the general american public will see that there is more to chanbara than Kurosawa and Mifune. While I have nothing against either of the two men, I do however prefer Gosha and Nakadai personally.

I would suggest watching Goyokin. It's directed by Gosha Hideo and stars Nakadai Tatsuya. It has enough character development to engage you, yet enough swordplay to keep you cheering.

*BEGIN SPOILER ALERT!!*

It's about a man named Magobei (Nakadai Tatsuya) who quit his official post after a massacre of a coastal fishing village. His Superior, Tatewaki Rokugo (Tanba Tetsuro) came up with a scheme to steal the shogun's gold from a ship that was transporting the gold in order to bring his clan out of debt. After the ship was sunk and the gold was stolen, the fishing village was massacred to cover-up the ill doings of Tatewaki.

Now the clans coffers are running out again and Tatewaki wants to steal the shogun's gold once more. Tatewaki's assistant sends out thugs to kill Magobei thus alerting him to another sinister plot by Tatewaki. He intends to repeat history and Magobei promises to not let it happen again.

The fight in the snow at the end of the film is absolutely amazing. You really feel sorry for Tanba and Nakadai for having to deal with the harsh snow and cold while acting and fighting. It is also one of the coolest 'exit stage left' type walk off into the distance endings ever imho.

*END SPOILER ALERT!!*

This flick should be relatively easy to locate. It was released a few years back by Tokyo Shock and is one of the easier Gosha films to find.


Last edited by SicklyBug on Mon May 07, 2007 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, perhaps there is a bit of reason for some optimism. I just found out today that my neighbor is a huge samurai film buff. He's also interested in studying samurai history so I referred him to this site.

He hasn't seen a lot of films and was aghast with wonder when he saw my collection. I lent him a couple of films. Hopefully, we're on our way in roping in a new convert to "Chambara-Land" and maybe into studying serious history.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
SicklyBug wrote:
Personally I enjoyed Kagemusha quite a bit, but then again I am a huge Nobunaga history buff. I loved Daisuke Ryu as Nobunaga in this film.


He's fantastic, isn't he? That's why I love the extended Criterion release on DVD--so many more scenes with Nobunaga in them. You really get a better feel for how much Shingen's death affected EVERYONE around.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wave Tossed wrote:
Well, perhaps there is a bit of reason for some optimism. I just found out today that my neighbor is a huge samurai film buff. He's also interested in studying samurai history so I referred him to this site.

He hasn't seen a lot of films and was aghast with wonder when he saw my collection. I lent him a couple of films. Hopefully, we're on our way in roping in a new convert to "Chambara-Land" and maybe into studying serious history.


Excellent, hopefully the more people that see chanbaras, the more films that get to see the light of day here in the states. I dream of a day when I can buy decent chanbara for less than 30$ a DVD and even get a DVD from a TV series that has more than 2 episodes on it for less than 30$.

It may be wishful thinking on my part, but it seems that chanbara is at the same stage that anime was 12 or so years ago. It's starting to surface in most stores and has the potential to become quite popular in the american sub-culture. One can only hope.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
SicklyBug wrote:
Personally I enjoyed Kagemusha quite a bit, but then again I am a huge Nobunaga history buff. I loved Daisuke Ryu as Nobunaga in this film.


He's fantastic, isn't he? That's why I love the extended Criterion release on DVD--so many more scenes with Nobunaga in them. You really get a better feel for how much Shingen's death affected EVERYONE around.


As far as I'm concerned, Daisuke Ryu IS Nobunaga. Smile

Whenever I picture the historical Nobunaga, it's always using Daisuke's portrayal of him in Kagemusha.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
SicklyBug wrote:
Personally I enjoyed Kagemusha quite a bit, but then again I am a huge Nobunaga history buff. I loved Daisuke Ryu as Nobunaga in this film.


He's fantastic, isn't he? That's why I love the extended Criterion release on DVD--so many more scenes with Nobunaga in them. You really get a better feel for how much Shingen's death affected EVERYONE around.


I love that they put the Uesugi Kenshin scene back into the film.

Aside from Daisuke Ryu's Nobunaga what I really loved was the small characteristics that everyone had. Yamanaka Yasuhito was excellent as Ranmaru. Kurosawa showed the unspoken relationship and servitude perfectly. The way the Yasuhito showed that Ranmaru knew Nobunaga's every whim was dead on. Which has to be hard to do when you consider that he didn't utter a word while interpreting his masters wishes before he made them. And Yui Masayuki was perfect as Ieyasu in his calm calculating mannerisms.

I can honestly say that I would not have enjoyed Kagemusha anywhere near as much as I do if it had not been for knowing beforehand about the real life people involved and their personal traits according to history.
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for all the replies. Maybe the movie wasnt too bad, but I never liked when Shingen and his clone sat down in like 1 minute and just stared at something. Not so entertaining.... Just Kidding
But now, thanks to you. I found out theres alot of other samurai films out there. And all movies arent the same as Kagemusha. Smile
Thanks everyone... Wink
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kurosawa later remarked that he considered Kagemusha a warm-up for Ran, so perhaps a screening of the latter film is in order. However, without a grounding in King Lear, one might find that one dull as well. Not me, I'm big on Shakespeare and Kurosawa, so I consider Ran a masterpiece. See what you think.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Personally I prefer Throne of Blood to Ran. Mifune does an absolutely fantastic job of protraying a man on the verge of insanity. I love Nakadai and normally prefer his acting over Mifune's but Nakadai's performance isn't quite right in Ran in my opinion.

Even though Ran has Daisuke Ryu and Tatsuya Nakadai in it, my vote goes for to Throne of Blood when talking about Kurosawa movies based on Shakespeare.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, at the end of the day, I'd have to go with Throne of Blood as well. Macbeth is a better fit for Sengoku battle and intrigue. I'm especially fond of that magnificent scene in which the woods appear to move through the mist towards the castle. And then Mifune's sheer terror as all those (real) arrows come flying at him. That wasn't just acting!
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
takuan wrote:
And then Mifune's sheer terror as all those (real) arrows come flying at him. That wasn't just acting!



It's funny you should mention that. Every time I think of Throne of Blood I imagine Mifune trying to dodge those arrows.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The arrow scene in Throne of Blood was crazy while watching it I didn't know that real arrows were actually shot around him was only some time after watching the film I found that out but I remember watching it and having to rewind it and watch it again as it was so good to watch.

I loved Kagemusha it is one of my favourite movies, the scenes and filming is amazing, however I still havn't had chance to watch Ran yet Shocked it's next on my list though. So what do you guys think was best Kagemusha or Ran, I know they will both be different and hopefully both great but if you had to pick one which would it be?

....I hope I enjoy Ran as much as I did Kagemusha
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
SicklyBug wrote:
takuan wrote:
And then Mifune's sheer terror as all those (real) arrows come flying at him. That wasn't just acting!



It's funny you should mention that. Every time I think of Throne of Blood I imagine Mifune trying to dodge those arrows.


But not well enough!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Not everybody is the Choosen One (tries to picture Mifune avoiding arrows Matrix style)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kagemusha is one of my all time favorites. I have two copies of it. VCR and two years ago I bought the two disc Criterion Collection. It is a must have and contains a small booklet with Kurosawa's artwork related to the film. I have to agree that Daisuke Ryu character of Nobunaga was fantastic. Gave me the chills.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nohime wrote:
I have to agree that Daisuke Ryu character of Nobunaga was fantastic. Gave me the chills.


For years and years his was, to me, the definitive Nobunaga portrayal.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:45 am    Post subject: Kagemusha Reply with quote
Its back on the big screen again the un-cut 180 min print is on a tour of Arthouses around the country ,
(Not that i expect to see it listed at a Multi Plex next to Run Fat Boy Run )
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:

For years and years his was, to me, the definitive Nobunaga portrayal.


What's topped it for you now?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The two disc DVD is a must. The interviews with George Lucus, Daisuke Ryu, and Masayuki Yui were first rate. As for Nobunaga, the only other one I can think of is the actor in Toshiie to Matsu.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
nohime wrote:
The two disc DVD is a must. The interviews with George Lucus, Daisuke Ryu, and Masayuki Yui were first rate. As for Nobunaga, the only other one I can think of is the actor in Toshiie to Matsu.


That's the guy. Smile


"Sou... de aru ka?" -- Loved that guy.

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