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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 7:31 am    Post subject: Help Identifying Kamon Reply with quote
Can anybody help me Identify this Kamon? It was originally identified as Tachibana, but that seems to be an error. I have looked at everything I can find to no avail.

Thanks

Mark

http://www2.snapfish.com/viewsharedphoto/p=422141179163429389/l=254152605/g=95141309/cobrandOid=1000131/otsc=SYE/otsi=SPIC
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 'Tachibana' (Mandarin Orange Flower) kamon, used by Okiyama Nobutomo, a general of Takeda Shingen. The Tachibana is also used by the Ii 'Red Devils'.



The Tachibana 'clan' used the 'Mamori' (talisman, charm) as their mon.
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmmmm. I thought the Tachibana clan used the Tachibana kamon (as did the Li and Suwa).

Now my kabuto is definitley misattributed.

As far as the Tachibana kamon and the one in the picture I linked.

This kamon is noticeably missing 2 of the 3 "petals" that surround the central portion of the icon (the top petal is present, but the two at 2' o'clock and 10 o'clock are missing). Otherwise it looks like a Tachibana mandarin blossom.

I can't find this particular kamon anywhere. Someone suggested it represented a tea flower or a berry blossom, but still no associated kamon.

I am stuck on this one. I have looked at hundreds of kamon with no success.

Mark
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found it. It is a Chanomi (Tea Plant fruit).



The Suwa uses a different mon. I have it as a Kaji (Paper mulberry?).


Many people often misspell it as Li. It is a capital i for Ii.


Last edited by evalerio on Mon May 14, 2007 11:14 am; edited 4 times in total
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AJBryant
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There may have been a disconnect.

It *is* a tachibana mon -- but not a mon of the Tachibana family. Tachibana means "mandarin orange".

There were actually a few families named Tachibana -- most famous being the daimyo family (who spelled it 立花, IIRC) and the ancient kuge family (who used the actual 橘 spelling).


Tony
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, you guys are good.

I will start researching, but if you can tell me what families used the Chanomi kamon, it would be great.

How on earth did you find that so fast. I looked at every site posted on this site and many others.

BR

Mark
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
There may have been a disconnect.

It *is* a tachibana mon -- but not a mon of the Tachibana family. Tachibana means "mandarin orange".

There were actually a few families named Tachibana -- most famous being the daimyo family (who spelled it 立花, IIRC) and the ancient kuge family (who used the actual 橘 spelling).


Tony


Tony

I believe that was the confusion. I understand what Tachibana meant, but I was led to believe that the Later Tachibana clan used it (seemed appropriate) but apparently not.

Mark
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evalerio
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mgd99 wrote:


How on earth did you find that so fast. I looked at every site posted on this site and many others.


Mark


I have one book with 4,260 kamon! Unfortunately it doesn't say which family used what.
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
evalerio wrote:
mgd99 wrote:


How on earth did you find that so fast. I looked at every site posted on this site and many others.


Mark


I have one book with 4,260 kamon! Unfortunately it doesn't say which family used what.


Nice resource.

I bought the kabuto because of its style and condition. An association with the Tachibana clan was a bonus. Seems no bonus now.

Now I really need to find out what family this is from. Having the wrong historical info is a bit annoying.

BTW This is in another post, but here is the kabuto

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AJBryant
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice hat!!!!

Two thumbs up

Tony
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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mgd99 wrote:


I bought the kabuto because of its style and condition. An association with the Tachibana clan was a bonus. Seems no bonus now.

Now I really need to find out what family this is from. Having the wrong historical info is a bit annoying.

BTW This is in another post, but here is the kabuto


Wow - how old is this supposed to be? I think even without a "bonus", an actual antique kabuto would be well worth it.
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Supposedly Momoyama-Early Edo period.

I have been looking at others to see if the style matches that period, and so far I don't see much to invalidate the dating.


Last edited by mgd99 on Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
Nice hat!!!!

Two thumbs up

Tony


Tony

Your site was a tremendous help. I have been reading the chapter on kabuto styles everyday, trying to absorb as much as possible.

Mark
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Follow up FYI.

A fellow in Tokyo sent me this info today.

Full name of kamon is Maru ni Cha no Mi (just a slight addition to Chanomi).

Translated as Maru = Circle, Cha= Tea, Mi=seed or berry therefore Tea berry inside a circle.

He identified these families as having used that crest.

Seiwahara branch of the Murata and Yamada families

Fujiwara Hidesato branch of the Matsumura and Akabori families

Buhei Branch of the Tsuda, Mita and Soma families

Fujiwara branch of the Murota, Ota and Ono families

Tachibana branch of the Yoneda family

Sugawara branch of the Tsuchida family


Off to do some research.

BR

Mark
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KeidoKojirou
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: An issue Reply with quote
The issue here is that, regardless of the famous families associated with the mon, there were various families in general that would have used a given mon at any given time. So, to attribute the kabuto to a given family based on mon identification seems a spurious exercise.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mgd99 wrote:
A fellow in Tokyo sent me this info today.

Full name of kamon is Maru ni Cha no Mi (just a slight addition to Chanomi).

Translated as Maru = Circle, Cha= Tea, Mi=seed or berry therefore Tea berry inside a circle.


==--->> Okay, here's where I stick my foot in my mouth... Wink Technically speaking, that is =NOT= the correct 'blazon' for what is shown in the picture in your original post. A "maru" would be a medium-width, solid-ring circle. What is shown in the picture is a "yae-kiku-wa" .. which translates roughly as 'eight-double/-fold chrysanthemum circle'. The correct total 'blazon' would then be: Yae-kiku-wa ni Cha no Mi.

Unless, of course, the actual shape of the circle is lelf strictly up to "artistic license" <koff, koff>... Rolling Eyes And to make matters "worse," that sort of 'surround'/'annulo'/'border' is quite 'late period' .. sort of like English heraldry under the Tudors [hack - ptoooey]{yes, I'm a Richardian} and later. In this case, it would mean 'heraldry that developed under the Tokugawa Shogunate'; i.e.-very definitely "decadent" as compared to the 'true' heraldry to be found during the Sengoku-jidai and earlier. You are free, naturally, to take this with as much 'salt' as you feel suitable. Cool
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mgd99
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am getting the distinct impression that the dating on this kabuto (as put forth by the dealer) is also questionable.

Dismaying considering their reputation.

M
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AJBryant
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Draggi, you son-of-a-teppo you!!!

When did you join this band of rabble?

How the heck are ya, man?


Tony
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