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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:08 am    Post subject: Imjin War Study Group Reply with quote
The threads pertaining to the study group we started in December '07 covering Japan's 1592 invasion of Korea are now open to the public for additional comments and discussion. We hope the you find these topics as interesting as we did.

Note: As this topic does tend to bring out some ugly mud slinging between people with sharply different opinions and views, extreme ultra-nationalist, racist or inflammatory comments/trolling will not be tolerated. PERIOD. Please play nicely.

Here are links to the threads from the discussion group.

Bunroku to Keicho Eki/Imjin Waeran Resources

Arms and Armor of the Imjin War

New Imjin War Book (in Japanese)

Turnbull's Korean War Book

Imjin War Naval Forces

How to identify Ming and Joseon troops

Imjin War Study Group Outline

Imjin War Discussion: Warm-Up Questions

What was Hideyoshi's main motive for invading Korea?

Hideyoshi Issues Marching Orders for Korea

Pre- Korean Invasion Diplomatic Blunders

Korea Braces for the Japanese Invasion

The Japanese Invasion Begins: Busan & Atrocities

The Battle of Chungju (Bird Pass)

The Rivals: Katou Kiyomasa and Konishi Yukinaga

Luis Frois and the Korean Invasion

The Arquebus and its Role in the Korean Invasions + Sangju

Battle of the Imjin River 5m 27d, 1592

Tongnae

The Contested Heritage of Koguryo/Gaogouli

The First Spear into China

What were Koreans eating in those days?

Japanese Organizational Moves

The Battle of Hansando

The Fall of Pyongyang
-----------------------------------------------------


PLEASE CHECK THIS POST PERIODICALLY!
New information pertaining to sources and downloads are updated here on this post.



Hi Everyone,

The December Imjin War study group is coming up faster than Japan’s march up from Busan to Seoul in 1592, so please be prepared!

I’ll be moderating the upcoming Imjin War Study group that will seek to have a balanced and logical discussion on Hideyoshi’s invasion of Korea (1592-1598) that brought Japan into direct military conflict not only with the Koreans, but also Ming China. This war has been a historical hot-button for people with all sorts of nationalistic agendas, but none of that will be tolerated in the upcoming discussion. Again, the goal is to have fun learning about this monumental event via well-balanced and well-informed discussions.

The Imjin War is full of stories of international diplomatic intrigue, bravery, tragedy, deceit, cowardly acts and cruelty—making for very interesting reading. However, we have a problem. Two of the more recent English-language publications on this conflict are no longer available from Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Therefore, I would like to give people enough time to try and get their hands on copies of recommended books from libraries or second-hand book re-sellers.

Recommended Books
1) The Imjin War: Japan's Sixteenth-Century Invasion of Korea and Attempt to Conquer China by Samuel Hawley (out of stock at Amazon and B&N but available from www.hanbooks.com) 2) The Book of Corrections: Reflections on the National Crisis During the Japanese Invasion of Korea, 1592-1598 by Song-Nyong Yu. (This book is readily available in English from Amazon and B&N.)
3) Samurai Invasion: Japan's Korean War 1592 -1598 by Stephen Turnbull (out of stock at Amazon and B&N)
4) Japanese Castles in Korea 1592-98 (Osprey) by Stephen Turnbull (COMING SOON)
5) Admiral Yi Sun-shin and His Turtleboat Armada by Yune-hee Park (out of print but many public and university libraries may have it).
6) Nanjung Ilgi: War Diary of Admiral Yi Sun-sin by Yi Tae-hung, Ha Pow-key, Sohn Sun-sin (available in English at www.hanbooks.com)
7) Fighting Ships of the Far East (2): Japan and Korea AD 612-1639 (Osprey) by Stephen Turnbull (readily available from Amazon and B&N)
8 ) Imjin Changch'o, Admiral Yi's memorials to court by Yi Sun-sin (available in English at www.hanbooks.com)
9 ) Hideyoshi by Mary Elizabeth Berry. This book is quite insightful about Hideyoshi and his policies. The last chapter, in particular, is quite good as it focuses on what motivated Hideyoshi's dreams of conquering Korea, China and even India. (available new on Amazon, but supplies are limited! Also in stock at B&N)
10 ) Japanese Castles in Korea 1592-98 (Osprey) by Stephen Turnbull and Peter Dennis (available- Nov 20, 2007 from Amazon.com)
11 ) Pirates of the Far East: 811-1639 (Osprey) by Stephen Turnbull and Richard Hook (available- Nov 20, 2007 from Amazon.com) The Wako raids from Japan against Korea and China foreshadow the things to come when Japan decided to launch a full-scale invasion of Korea. This should be an interesting side-bar topic.

Please do your best to read what you can from this list as these books will help give you the background needed to make meaningful contributions to the discussion.

Recommended Articles
Also, I’ve posted numerous PDF articles (CURRENTLY 6) on the internet that are worth downloading and reading. You can find the articles here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/japan-research/files/ Please check the Imjin War folder on the Yahoo site periodically to see if I've posted anything new.

PLEASE NOTE: THE YAHOO GROUP IS NO LONGER ACTIVE.

Online Map Reference
An online map of the 1592 invasion can be found at the maproom.org's website. http://www.maproom.org/00/05/present.php?m=0004

I look forward to your participation in this study group and please feel free to PM me should you have any questions or comments.

Obenjo Kusanosuke
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:36 am; edited 10 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My participation will mostly consist of lurking and learning. I know so little of the events involved.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Your book recommandation is pretty inclined.
I'm gonna have to stick with primary sources. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lucky you for having access to primary sources. Just keep in mind how biased those can be, and how much can be missing from any one source.

As for myself, I regret that I don't really have access to an English-language scholarly library or the like, and my knowledge of the subject is not the greatest. I apologize, but I may have to lurk and watch as well. Though, I am happy to have passed the test and to be able to take part in future discussions - maybe there will be one that's more up my alley...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Your book recommandation is pretty inclined.
I'm gonna have to stick with primary sources. Rolling Eyes


Gee, Shiki, two of my recommended sources are translations of primary sources. How do you know if they are biased if you haven't read them? Are they automatically "だめ" because they are English translations of non-Japanese primary sources? Remember, most of the participants won't be able to read Japanese, classical Chinese or Korean, so I can only *recommend* what is available in English. If there were translations of Japanese and Chinese primary sources available in English, they would be in that list, too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you will be reading primary Japanese sources, but which ones will you be reading? I think you know better to take as truth every word that is written in books like the Shimazu chronicles as the goal is to make the Shimazu look good in everything they do. I hope you are sticking to the writings of the Japanese Buddhist monks who were there in Korea. Those are probably the fairest accounts you are going to find from the Japanese side. Also, if you can, read Yu's "The Book of Corrections". Probably much to your surprise, you will see that Yu is very fair in his judgments of what happened and who messed up. It may surprise you and this book is a gem of a find. You are also free to add to the list any of Kitajima Manju's books I suggested to you before if you think they may be of value to those who can read Japanese.

EDIT: Shiki- do you have a copy of the monk Gensō's diaries from his time in Korea with Konishi? This would be interesting reading.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've added the following PDF files to the Imjin War folder on the Yahoo Samurai Archives History Group Imjin War Folder at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/japan-research/files

PLEASE NOTE: AS OF FEB 2008 THE YAHOO GROUP IS NO LONGER ACTIVE.

When you sign up for the yahoo group, please include your Samurai Archives forum ID in your message.

The files added are:
1. “Korea’s Legendary Admiral” by Barry Strauss
2. “Tea politics, Christianity, Diplomacy and the Economics of the Korean Wars" by Maria Petrucci
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A great topic to lurk in, for me. Hope to be able to
give even a small contribution.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
lordameth wrote:
Lucky you for having access to primary sources. Just keep in mind how biased those can be, and how much can be missing from any one source.

As for myself, I regret that I don't really have access to an English-language scholarly library or the like, and my knowledge of the subject is not the greatest. I apologize, but I may have to lurk and watch as well. Though, I am happy to have passed the test and to be able to take part in future discussions - maybe there will be one that's more up my alley...


Tsubame1 wrote:
A great topic to lurk in, for me. Hope to be able to
give even a small contribution.


Wave Tossed wrote:
My participation will mostly consist of lurking and learning. I know so little of the events involved.


Asking questions = participation. If the topic is something you have no idea about, watch the conversation, and ask questions. The discussion group topics tend to get into a lot of detail, and questions spur more discussion and get more information posted.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Asking questions = participation.


Slurp... I will. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Wave Tossed wrote:
My participation will mostly consist of lurking and learning. I know so little of the events involved.


Asking questions = participation. If the topic is something you have no idea about, watch the conversation, and ask questions. The discussion group topics tend to get into a lot of detail, and questions spur more discussion and get more information posted.
HAI!!!! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you going to put out certain things to focus on? (Reasons for invasion, tactics, diplomatic events, etc.) It's kind of a huge topic. Just saying.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:
Are you going to put out certain things to focus on? (Reasons for invasion, tactics, diplomatic events, etc.) It's kind of a huge topic. Just saying.

Yup, I'll have an outline of subjects for discussion with associated questions. I'll post that about a week before the actual discussion starts. If people want it earlier than that, you are all going to have to wait until I get back from Guangzhou and can think a bit more clearly. Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey all,

A sizable chunk of the Japanese Castles in Korea book can be found here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rojbQ3QOlV0C&pg=PA135&dq=Japanese+Castles+in+Korea+1592-98&as_brr=3&sig=bVROph2ViasLAKCGoQbOK83Sm00


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I never said English sources are bad.
The list just needs more books from different views.

Quote:
Lucky you for having access to primary sources. Just keep in mind how biased those can be, and how much can be missing from any one source.

Not really. Only I can find from local liberary is 乱中日記and看羊録, no Japanese record.
But a book Obenjo-san recommended on other thread is very helpful, it quotes alot from primary sources.

Quote:
do you have a copy of the monk Gensō's diaries from his time in Korea with Konishi?


What's the title in kanji?
I may be able to find somewhere.
What I'm looking for now is Hideyoshi's 朱印状.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
僊巣稿?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:

The list just needs more books from different views.

That's the problem! There just aren't too many books in English on the subject from a *Japanese* perspective. Turnbull is as pro-Japan as you are going to find, and Hawley, despite what you may have read in other posts, is pretty even handed and slams all three major combatants for folly when it is deserved.

Wangkon PMed me and told me that Hawley's book is available at a steep price from hanbooks.com. I do recommend this book, and together with Turnbull, these will give a pretty decent overview of the conflict. Shiki- it's quite late and I am very tired so I really can't check on the title you posted. If you find Genso's stuff ANYWHERE in Japanese, Swahili, Hangul, or whatever, PM me and I will gladly add it to the sticky. If you want me to add Kitajima Manju's books, I'll do that to. Just give me a recommendation.

Very Happy And I do suggest you read at least one book from the Korean perspective. It's like if you read about Midway from only the American point of view, sure, it's interesting, but if you also read about it from the Japanese perspective, by those who were actually there, (Gemba Minoru co-wrote a book that I read) then it adds a whole new dimension to your knowledge. And as they say, knowledge is power... Also, read the PDFs I have posted! I'll save my opinions on Kenneth Swope for later, but you'll find his writings very interesting. He's a Mingaphile. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems Genso's 僊巣稿 can be read only at Japan National Archives.
http://www.archives.go.jp/


The Japanese book you recommended to me was actually pro-Korea though.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
It seems Genso's 僊巣稿 can be read only at Japan National Archives.
http://www.archives.go.jp/


The Japanese book you recommended to me was actually pro-Korea though.
Shocked Really? I thought if anything, that author would have presented it in a from a Japanese perspective. BTW- cool link. I love that site.

Shiki, in all honesty, I'm having a hard time finding much in English or in any language that is not at least a little sympathetic to the Koreans. After all, they were invaded (there is no doubt who were the aggressors--you've got to agree with me on this point Laughing ) and it isn't like the samurai went around giving flowers and candy to Korean women and children and playing nicely with the dogs and cats. Quite the opposite. So what are you expecting?

See if you can get your hands on Yu's "Book of Corrections". You will see that even Yu, who was something akin to Korea's prime minister at the time of Hideyoshi's invasions, blames pretty much the Koreans themselves for their problems in dealing with the Japanese threat. The portrayal of the Ming isn't the most flattering, either. I really got to hand it to Yu for writing a well-balanced piece on the history of the conflict.

Also, I think the records of the actions of the Matsura and the Shimazu forces in Korea can be found--somewhere. These will document the campaigns from a military perspective, but I again, you can't take the body counts and some of the tales too seriously as it is clan propaganda and boasting. You know how it went. I have a connection to a collateral branch of the Matsura clan. One of these days, I have to get over to Hirado and check some stuff out. When I showed "hime-sama" some stuff that Turnbull had in English about the composition of the Matsura army in Korea, her eyes nearly popped out of her head--bewildered that this was available in English.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I know that is why I am looking for Hideyoshi's 朱印状.
The letters were written during the war, not after the war.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Shuinjo would be fascinating to read, as my dissertation last year was on early modern Japanese trade with SE Asia... but as these are documents authorizing trade, I don't really see how they're directly relevant as records of the war or anything like that.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
George Elison wrote “The Priest Keinen and His Account of the Campaign in Korea, 1597-1598". It is cited here and there in some of the works I have read, but I can't get my hands on the full version of this. Does anybody know where it is available?

Shiki, have you seen Keinen's writings in Japanese?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What Kanji for Keinen?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
What Kanji for Keinen?
I think it is 慶念.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My local liberary doesn't have the book.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have some questions, but I'm worried they're too basic and you guys will laugh at me. Embarassed

Anyhow, here's lurking at you, kids! Laughing
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