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A.L.Mundell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't advocate bad grammar, I just feel that if the words don't distract you enough to just read through then on the most basic level I have failed.

An artist who paints a painting and has someone say "There is a knot hole in your frame" has not captured the attention of his audience. I also resolve to work harder on anything I may submit but to me it is a zero sum game, if something is bad, people won't read it. I will try harder if I submit something and thank you for your encouragement.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A.L.Mundell wrote:
I don't advocate bad grammar, I just feel that if the words don't distract you enough to just read through then on the most basic level I have failed.

An artist who paints a painting and has someone say "There is a knot hole in your frame" has not captured the attention of his audience. I also resolve to work harder on anything I may submit but to me it is a zero sum game, if something is bad, people won't read it. I will try harder if I submit something and thank you for your encouragement.
Perhaps the good grammar advocates are not thinking in the same vein as what you seemed to be referring to here, Arthur, which appears to be a struggle between "correctness" and "style."

I think I may understand, but allow me to elaborate; my husband, who teaches basic grammar to freshmen and sophomores, has to be draconian when marking a paper whose purpose is to test the basic knowledge of the student of proper form and expression. This is formal knowledge that must be mastered to allow English to be transmitted from writer to reader in a clear manner. Once this knowledge is mastered and the basics understood, the writer can then proceed to throw the book out the window when writing in a creative mode, because he now knows the underlying structures that work on a communicative level, so that the flights of fancy which do not adhere to formal rules can be properly transmitted to minds schooled in the same mode of discourse.

My husband is a grammar Nazi in the classroom, but his own fiction disobeys many rules of grammar. However, it doesn't disobey the basic ones that create the underlying structure of the piece so that others may enjoy the fancy toppings he offers. So, while he might have a sentence that runs on and fails to provide an object as in "subject-verb-object" construction, he does not commit blatant misspellings or misplace a comma that creates an unintended possessive out of what should be a mere plural. There are acceptable errors and there are "howlers." A good writer edits out the howlers to the best of his ability and keeps the so-called "erroneous" constructions that are deliberately used to create atmosphere according to one's own stylistic sensibilities.

It is a fine balance one holds to when one deliberately breaks the rules of the game; quite often it does not work. Many formal schools of fiction are considered to be rubbish by other, equally schooled experts. It is impossible to please everyone stylistically. And there is no such thing as failure in writing, just "needs improvement," like they used to write on report cards back in the old days...

Cheers, and have at it! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A.L.Mundell wrote:
I don't advocate bad grammar, I just feel that if the words don't distract you enough to just read through then on the most basic level I have failed.

An artist who paints a painting and has someone say "There is a knot hole in your frame" has not captured the attention of his audience. I also resolve to work harder on anything I may submit but to me it is a zero sum game, if something is bad, people won't read it. I will try harder if I submit something and thank you for your encouragement.


Your metaphor needs work - I can see through a window crawling with maggots and stained with dried cow brains and pig feces - but am I going to enjoy the view? The words are your window, the plot your view. Done let the shit on the window get in the way of your view. Lucky for you, it is easy to clean a window, not so easy to create a good view. Wash your window before you present your view, and your viewers will be grateful.

In other words, fix misspellings and shitty grammar so that it doesn't obscure your brilliant plot.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
A.L.Mundell wrote:
I don't advocate bad grammar, I just feel that if the words don't distract you enough to just read through then on the most basic level I have failed.

An artist who paints a painting and has someone say "There is a knot hole in your frame" has not captured the attention of his audience. I also resolve to work harder on anything I may submit but to me it is a zero sum game, if something is bad, people won't read it. I will try harder if I submit something and thank you for your encouragement.


Your metaphor needs work - I can see through a window crawling with maggots and stained with dried cow brains and pig feces - but am I going to enjoy the view? The words are your window, the plot your view. Done let the shit on the window get in the way of your view. Lucky for you, it is easy to clean a window, not so easy to create a good view. Wash your window before you present your view, and your viewers will be grateful.

In other words, fix misspellings and shitty grammar so that it doesn't obscure your brilliant plot.

Hahaha! As usual, kitsuno, you say in one concise, short and colorful metaphor what I tried to say in several paragraphs! That really "clarifies" things! Laughing It is a shame that even some established writers tend to make sure the window is stained with their own distinctive "style," aka, their own brand of "shit." Some take pride in this, and some work to clear it off. But, to quote a famous fictional would-be sumo wrestler, "Everyone likes their own brand." Laughing
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A.L.Mundell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
onnamusha wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
A.L.Mundell wrote:
I don't advocate bad grammar, I just feel that if the words don't distract you enough to just read through then on the most basic level I have failed.

An artist who paints a painting and has someone say "There is a knot hole in your frame" has not captured the attention of his audience. I also resolve to work harder on anything I may submit but to me it is a zero sum game, if something is bad, people won't read it. I will try harder if I submit something and thank you for your encouragement.


Your metaphor needs work - I can see through a window crawling with maggots and stained with dried cow brains and pig feces - but am I going to enjoy the view? The words are your window, the plot your view. Done let the shit on the window get in the way of your view. Lucky for you, it is easy to clean a window, not so easy to create a good view. Wash your window before you present your view, and your viewers will be grateful.

In other words, fix misspellings and shitty grammar so that it doesn't obscure your brilliant plot.

Hahaha! As usual, kitsuno, you say in one concise, short and colorful metaphor what I tried to say in several paragraphs! That really "clarifies" things! Laughing It is a shame that even some established writers tend to make sure the window is stained with their own distinctive "style," aka, their own brand of "shit." Some take pride in this, and some work to clear it off. But, to quote a famous fictional would-be sumo wrestler, "Everyone likes their own brand." Laughing


I am a lot less certain about this idea than I used to be, I hear the tremendous amount of education that goes into the posts people make and realize I am trying to play catch up to something I thought was instinctive. I will be quiet instead.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
onnamusha wrote:
It is a shame that even some established writers tend to make sure the window is stained with their own distinctive "style," aka, their own brand of "shit."


I'm not talking about style, I'm talking about "And then Joe went into unlock the the car of blue to get hiz wickid awesome gun. It was the awesomest gun ever. The awesomeness of joe's gun embossed the air around everyone super wickedly and was awesome." No matter how you try to spin or look at it, the above is bad grammar and bad spelling. No one could argue that is "style".
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:


I'm not talking about style, I'm talking about "And then Joe went into unlock the the car of blue to get hiz wickid awesome gun. It was the awesomest gun ever. The awesomeness of joe's gun embossed the air around everyone super wickedly and was awesome." No matter how you try to spin or look at it, the above is bad grammar and bad spelling. No one could argue that is "style".
I had been attempting to differentiate "style" from "proper form" and how it is sometimes difficult for some people to delay trying to pursue "style" until they've mastered the basics. I probably wasn't very clear, so I, too, must work on cleaning my own windshield! Cheers! Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
onnamusha wrote:
kitsuno wrote:


I'm not talking about style, I'm talking about "And then Joe went into unlock the the car of blue to get hiz wickid awesome gun. It was the awesomest gun ever. The awesomeness of joe's gun embossed the air around everyone super wickedly and was awesome." No matter how you try to spin or look at it, the above is bad grammar and bad spelling. No one could argue that is "style".
I had been attempting to differentiate "style" from "proper form" and how it is sometimes difficult for some people to delay trying to pursue "style" until they've mastered the basics. I probably wasn't very clear, so I, too, must work on cleaning my own windshield! Cheers! Smile


It was starting to look like you were claiming that bad grammar and bad spelling could be called someone's "style".
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:


It was starting to look like you were claiming that bad grammar and bad spelling could be called someone's "style".
Only to the extent that it doesn't obscure or derail the meaning and flow; there are grammar rules which may be broken, but only if they do not sacrifice flow and understanding in the name of "style." I am not advocating throwing the book out at the basic level, only in furtherance of mood, and only then when it does not, as you say, obscure the view and distract the reader.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I understand the arguments some people are making about style, but most people are not e e cummings and Jack Kerouac. You can afford to have a challenging, rule-breaking style if you're a genius writer and can back up your difficult style with brilliant content. However, even in the world of professional writing, geniuses are few and far between, and that's one reason why most people tend to stick to conventional English grammar. Few people can afford to alienate their potential audience.

Anyway, I think there's something to be said for showing that you know the rules before you go about breaking them. Picasso didn't start out with Cubism, he developed a strong foundation in established techniques before gettin' fancy.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think people are forgetting that we're talking about a contest here...
Naturally there will be formal rules and regulations.
Nobody's going to stop you from posting it elsewhere or submitting working drafts for critique.
And kitsuno never said that poor grammar etc. would get a story disqualified by default, only that the options exists.
Yeah, you should proof read (and have others proof read) your work before you submit it! You really expect to stand any chance in a competition if you don't?
You can't just finish writing your first draft the night before and submit that as your final piece the next day (unless you're kitsuno... Just Kidding ).
If you're choosing to employ stylistic elements to your writing they better hold up in context. If they do you've got nothing to worry about, if they don't you've got nothing to complain about.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
99.9999% of the time, bad grammar and spelling detract from a work. Once in a blue moon, someone comes along and deliberately incorportates bad grammar into his/her style. However, bad grammar and spelling in a piece of fiction has to have a VERY specific reason for it. If there is no reason for crappy grammar, then don't use it. And 99.9999% of the time, there is no reason at all to use poor grammar and/or spelling in a piece of historical Japanese fiction

Remember that ee cummings wrote poetry, not prose fiction.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not trying to say that one should write in free-flow fanciful style, throwing every rule out the window and adhering only to a rarefied inner vision such that the writer is the only person who can understand what is flowing from the keyboard. My point was, rather, that while rigid rules of grammar are most useful in creating an understandable framework and painting a clear picture, the breaking of said rules (judiciously!) can also create definite effects. One example would be the use of fragments to create a literary version of a jump-cut effect. This could be used in order to give a battle scene a sort of fast-moving verisimilitude if applied correctly. An unfinished sentence to illustrate an unfinished thought...that sort of thing.

Of course, one cannot burst out of the gate writing a "word salad," unless one wishes to be diagnosed schizophrenic or the victim of too many video games. But, judiciously applied, certain departures can create desired literary effects, the structure mirroring action, and so forth. Naturally, if it doesn't flow coherently to the reader's eye, it shouldn't be used. Hopefully this will illustrate what I meant and put to rest the fears that I plan to write some great incoherent work that only I will understand. If I were to write such a thing, I'd more than likely be the only one to read it.

I think your thought, Matsuhide, best expresses what I was trying to say:
Quote:
If you're choosing to employ stylistic elements to your writing they better hold up in context. If they do you've got nothing to worry about, if they don't you've got nothing to complain about.


So much for "style;" I didn't expect it to become such a hot potato! Surprised
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well there is a big difference between style and grammar for me.

I have read a story, by a proffesor at my college once, on George W, but it was in the style of a Shaksperean comedy, iambic pentimeter and all. He could have written in a regular style, but that particular style served a purpose.

We had to do an excercise in my writing fiction course, where you write a story, then rewrite it in three different styles, changing anything from narrative style,literary style or even tone.

For me Noriatsu the Liar went through 3 style changes before I settled on the one I used (third person semi omnipotent if you wanted to know).

Now grammar on the other hand can make or break anything.(I know my posts are riddled with spelling errors, but I am a manic writer, you should see my handwritten notes)
I used to have to edit articles for a college magazine, and there were times I wanted to stab myself in the eyes. The process would be read it, edit it, send it back then rinse and repeat. Some articles you could barely make it 1 paragraph before the poor grammar loses you.

If a literary effect could be pulled off, more power to you. If it fails it is like comparing special effects from Star Wars to the ones found on SCI FI orginal movies.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:


Now grammar on the other hand can make or break anything.(I know my posts are riddled with spelling errors, but I am a manic writer, you should see my handwritten notes)
I used to have to edit articles for a college magazine, and there were times I wanted to stab myself in the eyes. The process would be read it, edit it, send it back then rinse and repeat. Some articles you could barely make it 1 paragraph before the poor grammar loses you.

If a literary effect could be pulled off, more power to you. If it fails it is like comparing special effects from Star Wars to the ones found on SCI FI orginal movies.

Maikeru


If I may use Maikeru as a prime example to abuse, his grammar and spelling tends to suck chef's chocolate salty balls, but his stories have always been flawless. So even someone like Maikeru can clean up his act for a story! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
maikeruart wrote:


Now grammar on the other hand can make or break anything.(I know my posts are riddled with spelling errors, but I am a manic writer, you should see my handwritten notes)
I used to have to edit articles for a college magazine, and there were times I wanted to stab myself in the eyes. The process would be read it, edit it, send it back then rinse and repeat. Some articles you could barely make it 1 paragraph before the poor grammar loses you.

If a literary effect could be pulled off, more power to you. If it fails it is like comparing special effects from Star Wars to the ones found on SCI FI orginal movies.

Maikeru


If I may use Maikeru as a prime example to abuse, his grammar and spelling tends to suck chef's chocolate salty balls, but his stories have always been flawless. So even someone like Maikeru can clean up his act for a story! Laughing


I feel I am unable to edit my posts, since I mostly write them while driving.

I will openly admit my grammar is piss poor at best when posting. I don't put much (any) care into them as I do my stories, which I will be in the editing phase for a week.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
maikeruart wrote:

I used to have to edit articles for a college magazine, and there were times I wanted to stab myself in the eyes. The process would be read it, edit it, send it back then rinse and repeat. Some articles you could barely make it 1 paragraph before the poor grammar loses you.

Interestingly, I will sometimes scour the local news stations' websites and gather examples of bad grammar in a compilation file for my husband to use in his basic composition classes. They have been a rich source of rather basic errors. In the 3 years I've been doing this, the sources don't appear to be getting any better at grammar.
maikeruart wrote:
I feel I am unable to edit my posts, since I mostly write them while driving.
Wow! Remind me to drive defensively when I'm on the same highway with you! Just Kidding On the other hand, that's quite a feat. I knew a woman, who, before the age of cellphones, could smoke a cigarette, put on her makeup and do her hair in a rather elaborate way, all while driving with her knees. I probably would have appreciated it even more had I not been strapped into the passenger's seat at the time.
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok so... It' s so long time ago I know but just wondering if anyone is going to muster some enthusiasm for new submissions this year? Otherwise,I am not going to do the research so I was wondering? ah!! Sid and the Kids just won in overtime!!! focus Arthur! ahem ...as I was saying Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm hoping to have something ready...

Timeline Kitsuno?
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll try to get on it in the next couple of weeks. Got busy with other things lately. It's still on this year, just don't know when yet.
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've already got one entry ready to go. I'll see if I can come up with another. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh Kitsuno...I think you have a pest problem, books are good for squishing bugs..Very Happy
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