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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 7:39 am    Post subject: Kanji (mirrored topic) Reply with quote
Hi all.

John has posted this very interesting topic in the
japanese language forum and I'm mirroring it
in fear it pass unrecorded there.
Might be it's related to ancient burial pictures of
cultural significance and belongs to here :

quote...

Hi All, This is a picture of a kozuka that has an
archaic form of pictogram on it. One of the fellows
on NMB has a koshirae that has the same characters
on it in the same order and the kozuka was
subsequently found researching it. Does anyone have
any ideas what this may mean? Thanks, John



...unquote
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Where can I see the original Kozuka?
Which ruin was it excavated?
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi shikisoku, This is a kozuka in the Baur collection ( D1667 ). It's by Otsuki Hideoki. The characters on it have been found in lacquer on a koshirae. It must have some significance. Here is some research I have done to find the source.

Hi All, I have been going at it to find a solution to this script and think I might have found it. In the 1930's there was a Nationalistic fervor in Japan where foreign influences were being thought of as impure and ancient practices and language forms were being researched. Germany at the same time was trying to eliminate foreign words from their vocabulary and were inventing words that had only Germanic roots to replace them. This is standard when ideology is trying to preserve ancient roots to create solidarity and purpose. At this time Kamiyo moji or Jindai moji which are supposed to be old Shinto scripts of the priests were revived. One of these scripts versions was called Ahira moji which has roots of, and is derivative of, Hangul, an old Korean script. Further there was an hypothetical script formulated that was considered to be the source of Jindai moji and Hangul called Garimto. Again now there is a resurgence in tracking these old scripts especially within the Reiki movement. I think this may be the source of the script on the koshirae and the kozuka. I checked the oracle bone script for rain and, although similar, is not the source.

"Jindai moji (Japanese: 神代文字 “script of the age of the gods”), also read as kamiyo moji, are characters (moji) comprising a fictional writing system promoted by Japanese nationalists in the 1930s as a native Japanese script predating Japan's exposure to Chinese writing. They are now generally acknowledged as a historical hoax, but are still found in various Shinto shrines, including the Ise Shrine, and used in some Shinto ceremonies and amulets.
Jindai moji were taught during the height of Japanese nationalism before World War II and mentioned in Japanese scholarly books. Today, they are acknowledged as recent fabrications, although some nationalists and Shintoists still argue for their authenticity." John


I have been checking the various Chinese scripts. The closest in similarities to these four figures is found within two scripts known as greater seal (dazhuan) and lesser seal (xiaozhuan). There are marked similarities. An old form of this (jinwen) is found on bronzes from about 8 cent. BCE and is considered the first written Chinese being as how it is derived from shell and bone script (jiaguwen) from up to 20th cent. BCE. So, I rule out nothing yet, but am here at an impasse. John

These were posted with some examples. I think I have NOT solved this and any help would be appreciated. John
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It's by Otsuki Hideoki.


Can I see 銘?
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you can you have better character recognition than me. I have since checked shamanistic Chinese, Korean, Tibetan and Japanese symbology. Nyet. I appreciate you even looking. John
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I watched to evertything on very early Japan I have
in the hope to find soemthign similar, but my guess
is that the orriginal inscriptions and information
have been lost after the works we are discussiong
were made, possibly during Meiji restoration or
WWII.
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nagaeyari
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/tsuzuki/sinmoji.htm

The possibility of seeing a Jindai Moji crossed my mind earlier. The following link (found on the Jindai Moji wikipedia page) shows some crazy examples that really do make me interested in hearing what the script truly is in your example, once you actually find out. I can only hope that you do eventually find out!

Jindai Moji are very interesting -- if you look at the examples from Tsukushi 筑紫, you will see that they all look like the wall carvings depicting arrow quivers found in kofun.


Last edited by nagaeyari on Sun May 11, 2008 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi nagaeyari, That's an interesting page. Thanks, John
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PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
First of all I 'm not sure of authenticity of the kozuka.
I don't think the characters are Jindai-moji.
Wasn't Hideoki late Edo period swordsmith, was he?
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Tsubame1
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ford Hallam, a fellow forumite in a Nihonto-related
forum has found the solution :

http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/books/tai-shan.htm
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