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owari no utsuke
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The two outsiders, Akechi Mitsuhide and Araki Murashige did betray Nobunaga. Most of the key positions in the Oda camp were mainly from Owari who had been with Nobunaga since the 1550s.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
The two outsiders, Akechi Mitsuhide and Araki Murashige did betray Nobunaga. Most of the key positions in the Oda camp were mainly from Owari who had been with Nobunaga since the 1550s.


And ironically, the one who accused Murashige of Mori sympathies was... Akechi Mitsuhide. Munashige fled because he thought that Nobunaga would have killed him on the spot, despite assurances of the contrary, that Nobunaga would refrain from punishing him and hear him out. Munashige was simply scared out of his wits.

Nobunaga couldn't guess that they would when he took them in his retinue. In Mitsuhide and Fujitaka's case I can understand that their past service to Ashikaga Yoshiaki made them very valuable and prestigious enough to be of direct service to Nobunaga, and their allegiance when the standoff between Nobunaga and Yoshiaki reached its climax ensured that they would remain so.

Murashige... not so much. I'm puzzled why Nobunaga gave him that privilege. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As for Araki Murashige, Lamers stated it best on page 156.

"Apart from the final rebellion by Akechi Mitsuhide in June 1582, which cost Nobunaga his life, it was no doubt Araki Murashige's mutiny in November 1578 that was the most dangerous of all the revolts he faced during his career."
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobunaga's vision of a unified Japan, even if his clan did not lead the efforts, as Hideyoshi and then Ieyasu took the base vision and continued to expand upon it,
the end results was a country that over the centuries grew and became wealthy such that he was a key figure in helping make that all come to pass.

Japan never had a foreign nation take their country over as many weaker countries had done to them when the country was closed off by the Tokugawa Shogunate.

the timing of when the Tokugawa Shogunate was taken down in hindsight looks to be as good time as any which then served as a springboard for Japan to change to be ready for the changes that the 20th century had in store.

even the war with the USA and loss, the subsequent alliance with the USA enable Japan to re-built to become one of the wealthiest countries in the world as measured by GDP and keep her autonomy.


as with any what if's such as if Nobunaga was not killed.. in hindsight, Nobugaga vision of a united nation living in prosperity in fact came true to what I am assuming was his vision all along.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Speaking of Nobunaga, can anyone who owns Japonius Tyrannus by Lamers check the citations and tell me if the Bukoyawa ("Campfire Tales: The Collected Documents of the Maeno Family") is listed? I'm reading a Phd thesis that is chock full of translations from it, and they are all first-hand accounts of Okehazama and Sunomata from warrior-farmers who didn't so much serve Nobunaga as were under his sphere of influence, and the stuff is extremely interesting - it's pretty much a first hand account of the events as they transpired, from the point of view of various people like Hachisuka Koroku and others. Apparently though, according the the author, Japanese historians are leery of taking it seriously as a historical source (one of the goals of the thesis is to show the value of these documents) so I'm curious if they were used in Lamers book.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am skimming through the index and bibliography. Nothing so far. Sad Lamer's book was published in 2000(Neilson's 2007).Neilson's paper is one of the best so far I have read on Nobunaga, Okehazama, Sunomata, and castle sieges. A bummer that Lamers did not even cite the Bukoyawa.

Fujimoto Masayuki is torn up to shreds in Neilson's paper regarding to Sunomata and the Bukoyawa. I almost bought his book on the subject.


The Bukoyawa is listed in Mr. Kajino Wataru's book on Okehazama. When I was Okehazama in October, I asked Yukio about Hachisuko Koroku and his role during the Battle Okehazama. He mentined that he participated. Then I e-mailed Mr. Yukio Kajino about the Bukoyawa and he told me that historians (professional) still have a difficult time understanding it. Translation: Still giving the finger to the Bukoyawa. As for the Kajino's, a wealth of golden information.

My take on this subject is that the pro's will lose out since they are not open minded. Neilson's paper will change the way how business was done during Nobunaga's time.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It turns out I have Neilson's master's thesis "Methods in Madness: The Last Years of Toyotomi Hideyoshi", and in the appendix there are six full pages of translation surrounding the deaths of Sen no Rikyuu and Toyotomi Hidetsugu. The text says things like "I've heard" and "I don't know, but", and "Here's my theory" types of things, so the fact that there is a lot of hearsay probably doesn't help Japanese historians to take it seriously.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As I read Neilson's thesis, the main problem with the historian big-shots was that they did not get their hands on the documents first. The Bukoyawa was published and was out in stores by surprise.

Neilson (p. 36)

"It is my conclusion that the rush to undermine the credibility of the Bukoyawa is partly a reactionary backlash by members of the historical community who are resentful of the fact that they were not the first to get their hands on a treasure trove of information."

Neilson (p. 34)

"Critics talk of the Bukoyawa as though it is the fully realized product of years of work by historians. It is not. It is a collection of documents that were compiled by several generations of the Maeno/Yoshida Clan and are still privately held by their descendants."

One of the big problems of the critics is that they fail to make adjustments. By reading Neilson's paper, it looks like the Men of the Fields hanged around at the Ikoma residence often. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi play huge supporting roles, but the Bukoyawa is not their story.

I wish I had Neilson's paper a couple of years earlier. It would of helped my Okehazama research. As for the Shincho-Ko ki translations, JACKPOT! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It always feels redundant posting blog posts here, but since this is an Oda Nobunaga thread, I guess it fits. From the blog:

http://shogun-yashiki.blogspot.com/2011/01/translation-from-shinchokoki-battle-of.html

The Battle of San no Yama-Akatsuka (A translation from the Shinchokoki done by me)

In the fourth month, 17th day of 1552, Oda Kozuke no suke Nobunaga was 19 years old (by contemporary Japanese reckoning). The lord of Narumi castle was Yamaguchi Samanosuke Noritsugu, and his son was Kurôjirô (Noriyoshi), who was 20 years old.

They were both watched carefully by lord Oda Bingo no kami Nobuhide, and after his death, they immediately attempted a rebellion, invading Owari with Suruga forces. It was an unpardonable act. Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was left guarding Narumi castle. Yamaguchi Samanosuke had a strategic fortress built at Kasadera, and deployed Kazurayama Nagayoshi, Okabe Gorbei Motonobu, Miura Samanosuke Yoshinari, Iinô Buzen no kami, and Asai Koshirô. Yamaguchi Samanosuke went to Nakamura, building a fortress in preparation for a seige.

Lord Oda Kozuke no suke Nobunaga was nineteen years old, with an army of 800. He passed through the village of Nakane on the way to Konarumi, and placed his troops on San no Yama. The 20 year old Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was approximately 15 Chô (1.6 Kilometers) to the East of San no Yama. He departed for Akatsuka, which was approximately 15 or 16 Chô (1.6 to 1.7 Kilometers) to the North of Narumi castle, with 1,500 troops. The vanguard was made up mainly of Ashigaru, led by Shimizu Matajûrô, Tsuge Sôjûrô, Nakamura Yohachirô, Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Narita Yoroku, Narita Sukeshirô, Shibayama Jintarô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Arakawa Matazô, and closed in on Akatsuka.

Seeing the situation from San no Yama, Kozuke no suke Nobunaga immediately dispatched troops to Akatsuka. The ashigaru vanguard included Arakawa Yojûrô, Arakawa Wakiemon, Hachiya Hannya no suke, Hasegawa Aisuke, Naitô Shôsuke, Aoyama Tôroku, Toda Sôjirô, and Katô Sukenojô.

When the armies were approximately five or six ken (9-11 meters) apart, the powerful archers on both sides fired arrows. Arakawa Yojûrô was struck deep beneath the visor of his helmet and fell from his horse, dying instantly. Enemy soldiers immediately grabbed his legs, others grabbed his scabbard, and began to drag him. Yojûrô’s allies grabbed his head and upper body to keep the enemy from taking his body. Yojûrô’s ornamented daito was approximately 1.8 meters long, and the scabbard width measured about 15-18 centimeters. The enemy pulled on the ornamented scabbard, while Yojûrô’s allies pulled the sword, his head and upper body, and pulled his body free of the enemy.

The melee lasted from approximately 10am to noon, with neither side able to get the upper hand. Yamaguchi forces killed that day included Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Mizukoshi Sukejûrô.

Because the armies were so close together, no one was able to take the heads of the people they had killed.

Kozuke no suke Nobunaga lost thirty cavalry.

Arakawa Matazô was captured alive by the Oda forces.
Akagawa Heishichi of the Oda forces was captured by enemy.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:26 am    Post subject: "時は今..." Reply with quote
For those of you who understand the meaning behind the phrase, "時は今" and a glimpse at perhaps why it was uttered, check out this link.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/45694/bschindewolfdistinction_final.pdf;jsessionid=C3AB2DBB8A421373838DC37A633C6174?sequence=7
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice link Obenjo. This is certainly different and fresh. As for Honjo Soemon, I do not believe his story at all. Then again, the author included all sides of the story (Akechi, Oda, and Frois). Plan to read it again this weekend.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is the Akechi Mitsuhide link that Schindewolf mentioned in his thesis.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/akechikenzaburotekisekai

His thesis so far is interesting. The time is now!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Here is the Akechi Mitsuhide link that Schindewolf mentioned in his thesis.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/akechikenzaburotekisekai

His thesis so far is interesting. The time is now!


I was going to ask if anyone had reviewed this blog/website? Anything interesting or new there?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The blog is updated about once or twice a week as far as I know.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In May, June, and July, the Gifu City of Museum of History will have five seminars related to Nobunaga. Topics include The Battles between Nobunaga and Azai Nagamasa, Nobunaga becoming a God, Nobunaga's rival Takeda Shingen, and Nobunaga's Catsle Towns.

http://www.nobunaga-kyokan.jp/blog/archives/2011/04/23.html
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am beginning my third reading of Jeroen Lamers book. It is such an enjoyable book to read.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I know the price is, but you should really own a copy of it. It is worth the price. Trust me. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm doing a presentation for the final part of my Basic Japanese course, and I'm doing it on none other than our beloved Nobuo-chan. Its pretty simple, I've only learnt very basic grammar (1st half of Minna no Nihongo if that means anything to anyone). Who he was, his origins in Owari, his career (burning Enrykuji, taking Kyoto, kicking out Yohshiaki and offing various daimyo), his "hobbies" and then his death and legacy.

But I need some help with some details and I need pictures (its got to have powerpoint to go with) and with blinking Sengoku Basara flooding the internet with bishounen nancy boys its hard for me to get them, at least using english language google. So bear with me:

1. I've read in a lot of sources Nobunaga was known as the "fool of Owari" in his youth, however, a cursory look at Japonius Tyrannus tells only that was known as simply Outsuke. Is Lamers simply being spartan in this academic book, or is that how Japanese source primary and secondary actually refere to him as?

2.About hobbies/cultural stuff , my reading again in the english (this maybe Turnbull stuff so it could be iffy) that Nobunaga like Tea ceremony, sumo, building nice castles and guns, now I know these all have some political importance use, so we can't necessarily extracpolate and call them affectations but I'm not doing a dissertation here.


3. Does anyone happen to have nice historical looking (i.e. they can Edo period stuff) of Nobunaga himself (I got the yellow background picture from this site), Matsunaga Hisahide, Ashikaga Yohshiaki, enryakuji or some other temple that pissed him off and some Japanese language period maps.

Sorry if it seems like its just shopping list, but I don't know where else to go, all the Japanese or Oriental Studies faculty here are scientists and linguists!
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
2.About hobbies/cultural stuff , my reading again in the english (this maybe Turnbull stuff so it could be iffy) that Nobunaga like Tea ceremony, sumo, building nice castles and guns, now I know these all have some political importance use, so we can't necessarily extracpolate and call them affectations but I'm not doing a dissertation here.


Oda Nobunaga liked a good game of kickball.

A form of kickball had been an aristocratic pastime since the late Heian period (794-1185) court and surprisingly Nobunaga, a passionate hunter and sumo fan, also had an interest in this ceremonial sport.

Nobunaga actively involved himself with the court such as in 1575 when he organised a match between leading nobles. Nobunaga used these matches as well as the Tea Ceremony to establish or strengthen political bonds, or to associate with people from outside the warrior class: with merchants in the case of tea, and with nobles in the case of kickball.

The kickball matches also allowed Nobunaga to famliarize himself with the various court nobles. At the time, one of the players, Asukai Masanori (1520-94), served as Crown Prince Sanehito's special envoy to Nobunaga. The Asukai family had earned a dominant position as 'masters of kickball' in the Muromachi period (1336 to 1573), thanks to the sponsorship of successive emperors and the Ashikaga shoguns. Nobunaga continued this shogunal sponsorship of the Asukai, even calling himself Masanori's 'kickball pupil' on one occasion.

This information I also learned from Japonius Tyrannus.
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Signore by Kunio Tsuji is a great novel. The novel can provide you with clues on Nobunaga and friends. If you can fork out the cash, the English version of Ota Gyuichi's Shincho-Ko ki is coming out soon as well. Ordered my copy and looking forward to it. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr No-Dachi wrote:
I'm doing a presentation for the final part of my Basic Japanese course, and I'm doing it on none other than our beloved Nobuo-chan.


Careful here--you do know that Nobuo was Nobunaga's son, right? I'm assuming you're referring to Nobunaga and not his son Nobuo when you say "Nobuo-chan", but Nobunaga would never have been called by his son's name.


Quote:
But I need some help with some details and I need pictures (its got to have powerpoint to go with) and with blinking Sengoku Basara flooding the internet with bishounen nancy boys its hard for me to get them, at least using english language google.


You're going to get that with Japanese Google Image Search too. You just have to sift through them.

Quote:
So bear with me:

1. I've read in a lot of sources Nobunaga was known as the "fool of Owari" in his youth, however, a cursory look at Japonius Tyrannus tells only that was known as simply Outsuke. Is Lamers simply being spartan in this academic book, or is that how Japanese source primary and secondary actually refere to him as?


O-utsuke (大虚け) or "the big empty headed". This isn't something any historical document would call him, especially the Shinchokoki that Lamers bases most of his research on. It's a folk thing--as a youth, Nobunaga was reckless and dressed in outlandish ways, leading many to think him simply a fool and unfit to lead the Oda family. Whether you think it was an act to appear foolish, or he was a fool until Hirate "woke him up" by committing suicide, depends on which fictional author you read. It was a nickname that people of the time gave him based on the way he acted--it may be documented as such.

Quote:
2.About hobbies/cultural stuff , my reading again in the english (this maybe Turnbull stuff so it could be iffy) that Nobunaga like Tea ceremony, sumo, building nice castles and guns, now I know these all have some political importance use, so we can't necessarily extracpolate and call them affectations but I'm not doing a dissertation here.


You can list all these, but you certainly want to mention (a sentence or so) that they were used to further political gains. This shouldn't be hard, as political figures of all ages and regions have been "patrons of the arts" to show off their power.

Quote:
3. Does anyone happen to have nice historical looking (i.e. they can Edo period stuff) of Nobunaga himself (I got the yellow background picture from this site), Matsunaga Hisahide, Ashikaga Yohshiaki, enryakuji or some other temple that pissed him off and some Japanese language period maps.


Go to www.google.co.jp and click on 画像 (gazou, image search) up at the top left. That will take you to their Google Image Search. Then cut and paste the following kanji in (the hiragana/romaji is so you can read it, just in case you can't):

織田信長 (おだのぶなが) Oda Nobunaga

松永久秀 (まつながひさひで) Matsunaga Hisahide

足利義明 (あしかがよしあき) Ashikaga Yoshiaki (No "h" in the romanization)

延暦寺 (えんりゃくじ) Enryakuji OR 比叡山 (ひえいざん) Hieizan (the mountain that Enryakuji was on)

For Sengoku maps, click HERE


I typed 戦国時代地図 (せんごくじだいちず) into GIS and these are the results. If you can give more specifics as to what you want (maps of where Sengoku daimyo territories were located, or actual maps from the period, etc.) then I might be able to scan/upload some things that might help. Or you may find what you need here.

Quote:
Sorry if it seems like its just shopping list, but I don't know where else to go, all the Japanese or Oriental Studies faculty here are scientists and linguists!


Don't apologize for asking--the above instructions should get you all you need. You should only apologize if you want it all handed to you on a platter, in 20 min or less! We're not Domino's...
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
The Signore by Kunio Tsuji is a great novel. The novel can provide you with clues on Nobunaga and friends. If you can fork out the cash, the English version of Ota Gyuichi's Shincho-Ko ki is coming out soon as well. Ordered my copy and looking forward to it. Very Happy


Doubt he's going to spend $200 on a resource for a first year Japanese class presentation. That's really for geeks like you and me.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why would I buy it? I live across the road from 2nd largest university library in the world. But it won't probably get it before I do the presentation.

Thanks for the info and advice (and the relavant characters for google.jp).
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ltdomer98 wrote:


Doubt he's going to spend $200 on a resource for a first year Japanese class presentation. That's really for geeks like you and me.
Speaking of geeks like us, today, Gakken released ドキュメント 信長の合戦 as the latest release of it's black RG series. Of course, I bought it but haven't had time to go through it in detail. It is beautifully illustrated, like all the black RGs. I'll geek out on it later.
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Tornadoes28
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
Tornadoes28 wrote:
I have a question regarding how Nobunaga increased the size of is army between Okehazama and his defeat of the Saito in 1567. At Okehazama, Nobunaga had approximately 3000(?) soldiers in his army. Between 1560 and 1567, Nobunaga increased his power and I assume the size of his armed forces. My question is how did Nobunaga increase the size of his armies between 1560 and 1567 while still remaining within the borders of Owari? Other than allying with Motoyasu, did Nobunaga increase his retainer band from any former Imagawa generals? Also, the SA Wiki states that following Saito Yoshitatsu's death in 1561, Nobunaga bribed away Saito generals. Were these Saito generals and their retainers what caused Nobunaga to increase his forces greatly by 1567 and later by 1568 when he marched on Kyoto?


I'd say a lot of it was just the fact that after Nobunaga managed to 'unify' Owari, it took years to consolidate his hold over the territory of former enemies. It probably took a while for many of his former enemies to want to throw in their lot with him. It also gave him a chance to stabilize Owari's economy, both in his original territories and the ones he acquired later. Oda's economic policies are often overlooked (much as he's usually overrated militarily), but he was quite brilliant in this area. Consolidating his hold over Owari and getting the economy to run smoothly gave him more funds with which to finance his army. In effect, the soldiers were already there-but you need money to pay them, something he didn't always have enough of when the province was fractured. Oda also seemed early on the value that full time ashigaru were to have in the coming years, and progressively recruited more and more of them as the decade wore on. And you could hire a lot more ashigaru for the same amount of money than you could samurai.

The extra troops from Mino helped, but the real help they provided were the bases they brought over to the Oda that at the same time were denied to the Saito.


According to Lamers, Nobunaga fielded an army totaling approximately 60,000 soldiers for his 1568 march to Kyoto to place Yoshiaki as the shogun. Nobunaga levied the men from four provinces, Owari, Mino, Ise, and Mikawa. A truly amazing fete since he had only finally conquered Mino the year before. It is interesting that it took so long for Nobunaga to subdue Mino. I know that Saito Tatsuoki was fairly secure in his stronghold on Mount Inaba but seeing as Nobunaga was able to assemble 60,000 soldiers only a year later, I wonder why he had such difficulty. The 60,000 soldiers in 1568 included men from Mino, so subtracting those soldiers from Mino, Nobunaga's army should still have been extremely large when facing Tatsuoki. Did Nobunaga really only receive a large infusion of soldiers by about 1566 to 1567? In 1560 he had about 3,000 soldiers. In 1568 he had 60,000. So in 1566-67, minus the Mino soldiers, Nobunaga must have had 40-45,000? He must have made a huge jump after 1565 when he had suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Tatsuoki.
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