Oda Nobunaga Redux

[owari no utsuke]

The two outsiders, Akechi Mitsuhide and Araki Murashige did betray Nobunaga. Most of the key positions in the Oda camp were mainly from Owari who had been with Nobunaga since the 1550s.
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[Drakken]

[owari no utsuke]

As for Araki Murashige, Lamers stated it best on page 156.

"Apart from the final rebellion by Akechi Mitsuhide in June 1582, which cost Nobunaga his life, it was no doubt Araki Murashige's mutiny in November 1578 that was the most dangerous of all the revolts he faced during his career."
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[mktanaka]

Nobunaga's vision of a unified Japan, even if his clan did not lead the efforts, as Hideyoshi and then Ieyasu took the base vision and continued to expand upon it,
the end results was a country that over the centuries grew and became wealthy such that he was a key figure in helping make that all come to pass.

Japan never had a foreign nation take their country over as many weaker countries had done to them when the country was closed off by the Tokugawa Shogunate.

the timing of when the Tokugawa Shogunate was taken down in hindsight looks to be as good time as any which then served as a springboard for Japan to change to be ready for the changes that the 20th century had in store.

even the war with the USA and loss, the subsequent alliance with the USA enable Japan to re-built to become one of the wealthiest countries in the world as measured by GDP and keep her autonomy.


as with any what if's such as if Nobunaga was not killed.. in hindsight, Nobugaga vision of a united nation living in prosperity in fact came true to what I am assuming was his vision all along.

[kitsuno]

Speaking of Nobunaga, can anyone who owns Japonius Tyrannus by Lamers check the citations and tell me if the Bukoyawa ("Campfire Tales: The Collected Documents of the Maeno Family") is listed? I'm reading a Phd thesis that is chock full of translations from it, and they are all first-hand accounts of Okehazama and Sunomata from warrior-farmers who didn't so much serve Nobunaga as were under his sphere of influence, and the stuff is extremely interesting - it's pretty much a first hand account of the events as they transpired, from the point of view of various people like Hachisuka Koroku and others. Apparently though, according the the author, Japanese historians are leery of taking it seriously as a historical source (one of the goals of the thesis is to show the value of these documents) so I'm curious if they were used in Lamers book.
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[owari no utsuke]

I am skimming through the index and bibliography. Nothing so far. Lamer's book was published in 2000(Neilson's 2007).Neilson's paper is one of the best so far I have read on Nobunaga, Okehazama, Sunomata, and castle sieges. A bummer that Lamers did not even cite the Bukoyawa.

Fujimoto Masayuki is torn up to shreds in Neilson's paper regarding to Sunomata and the Bukoyawa. I almost bought his book on the subject.


The Bukoyawa is listed in Mr. Kajino Wataru's book on Okehazama. When I was Okehazama in October, I asked Yukio about Hachisuko Koroku and his role during the Battle Okehazama. He mentined that he participated. Then I e-mailed Mr. Yukio Kajino about the Bukoyawa and he told me that historians (professional) still have a difficult time understanding it. Translation: Still giving the finger to the Bukoyawa. As for the Kajino's, a wealth of golden information.

My take on this subject is that the pro's will lose out since they are not open minded. Neilson's paper will change the way how business was done during Nobunaga's time.
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[kitsuno]

It turns out I have Neilson's master's thesis "Methods in Madness: The Last Years of Toyotomi Hideyoshi", and in the appendix there are six full pages of translation surrounding the deaths of Sen no Rikyuu and Toyotomi Hidetsugu. The text says things like "I've heard" and "I don't know, but", and "Here's my theory" types of things, so the fact that there is a lot of hearsay probably doesn't help Japanese historians to take it seriously.
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[owari no utsuke]

As I read Neilson's thesis, the main problem with the historian big-shots was that they did not get their hands on the documents first. The Bukoyawa was published and was out in stores by surprise.

Neilson (p. 36)

"It is my conclusion that the rush to undermine the credibility of the Bukoyawa is partly a reactionary backlash by members of the historical community who are resentful of the fact that they were not the first to get their hands on a treasure trove of information."

Neilson (p. 34)

"Critics talk of the Bukoyawa as though it is the fully realized product of years of work by historians. It is not. It is a collection of documents that were compiled by several generations of the Maeno/Yoshida Clan and are still privately held by their descendants."

One of the big problems of the critics is that they fail to make adjustments. By reading Neilson's paper, it looks like the Men of the Fields hanged around at the Ikoma residence often. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi play huge supporting roles, but the Bukoyawa is not their story.

I wish I had Neilson's paper a couple of years earlier. It would of helped my Okehazama research. As for the Shincho-Ko ki translations, JACKPOT!
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[kitsuno]

It always feels redundant posting blog posts here, but since this is an Oda Nobunaga thread, I guess it fits. From the blog:

http://shogun-yashiki.blogspot.com/2011/01/translation-from-shinchokoki-battle-of.html

The Battle of San no Yama-Akatsuka (A translation from the Shinchokoki done by me)

In the fourth month, 17th day of 1552, Oda Kozuke no suke Nobunaga was 19 years old (by contemporary Japanese reckoning). The lord of Narumi castle was Yamaguchi Samanosuke Noritsugu, and his son was Kurôjirô (Noriyoshi), who was 20 years old.

They were both watched carefully by lord Oda Bingo no kami Nobuhide, and after his death, they immediately attempted a rebellion, invading Owari with Suruga forces. It was an unpardonable act. Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was left guarding Narumi castle. Yamaguchi Samanosuke had a strategic fortress built at Kasadera, and deployed Kazurayama Nagayoshi, Okabe Gorbei Motonobu, Miura Samanosuke Yoshinari, Iinô Buzen no kami, and Asai Koshirô. Yamaguchi Samanosuke went to Nakamura, building a fortress in preparation for a seige.

Lord Oda Kozuke no suke Nobunaga was nineteen years old, with an army of 800. He passed through the village of Nakane on the way to Konarumi, and placed his troops on San no Yama. The 20 year old Yamaguchi Kurôjirô was approximately 15 Chô (1.6 Kilometers) to the East of San no Yama. He departed for Akatsuka, which was approximately 15 or 16 Chô (1.6 to 1.7 Kilometers) to the North of Narumi castle, with 1,500 troops. The vanguard was made up mainly of Ashigaru, led by Shimizu Matajûrô, Tsuge Sôjûrô, Nakamura Yohachirô, Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Narita Yoroku, Narita Sukeshirô, Shibayama Jintarô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Arakawa Matazô, and closed in on Akatsuka.

Seeing the situation from San no Yama, Kozuke no suke Nobunaga immediately dispatched troops to Akatsuka. The ashigaru vanguard included Arakawa Yojûrô, Arakawa Wakiemon, Hachiya Hannya no suke, Hasegawa Aisuke, Naitô Shôsuke, Aoyama Tôroku, Toda Sôjirô, and Katô Sukenojô.

When the armies were approximately five or six ken (9-11 meters) apart, the powerful archers on both sides fired arrows. Arakawa Yojûrô was struck deep beneath the visor of his helmet and fell from his horse, dying instantly. Enemy soldiers immediately grabbed his legs, others grabbed his scabbard, and began to drag him. Yojûrô’s allies grabbed his head and upper body to keep the enemy from taking his body. Yojûrô’s ornamented daito was approximately 1.8 meters long, and the scabbard width measured about 15-18 centimeters. The enemy pulled on the ornamented scabbard, while Yojûrô’s allies pulled the sword, his head and upper body, and pulled his body free of the enemy.

The melee lasted from approximately 10am to noon, with neither side able to get the upper hand. Yamaguchi forces killed that day included Ogiwara Sukejûrô, Nakajima Matajirô, Sobue Kyûsuke, Yokoe Magohachi, and Mizukoshi Sukejûrô.

Because the armies were so close together, no one was able to take the heads of the people they had killed.

Kozuke no suke Nobunaga lost thirty cavalry.

Arakawa Matazô was captured alive by the Oda forces.
Akagawa Heishichi of the Oda forces was captured by enemy.
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[Obenjo Kusanosuke]

For those of you who understand the meaning behind the phrase, "時は今" and a glimpse at perhaps why it was uttered, check out this link.

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/45694/bschindewolfdistinction_final.pdf;jsessionid=C3AB2DBB8A421373838DC37A633C6174?sequence=7
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Heee heee! Shita iro! Shita iro! Here comes his lordship, Baka Tono!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rekishinotabi

[owari no utsuke]

Nice link Obenjo. This is certainly different and fresh. As for Honjo Soemon, I do not believe his story at all. Then again, the author included all sides of the story (Akechi, Oda, and Frois). Plan to read it again this weekend.
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[owari no utsuke]

Here is the Akechi Mitsuhide link that Schindewolf mentioned in his thesis.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/akechikenzaburotekisekai

His thesis so far is interesting. The time is now!
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[Tornadoes28]

[owari no utsuke]

The blog is updated about once or twice a week as far as I know.
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[owari no utsuke]

In May, June, and July, the Gifu City of Museum of History will have five seminars related to Nobunaga. Topics include The Battles between Nobunaga and Azai Nagamasa, Nobunaga becoming a God, Nobunaga's rival Takeda Shingen, and Nobunaga's Catsle Towns.

http://www.nobunaga-kyokan.jp/blog/archives/2011/04/23.html
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[Tornadoes28]

I am beginning my third reading of Jeroen Lamers book. It is such an enjoyable book to read.
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[owari no utsuke]

I know the price is, but you should really own a copy of it. It is worth the price. Trust me.
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[Mr No-Dachi]

I'm doing a presentation for the final part of my Basic Japanese course, and I'm doing it on none other than our beloved Nobuo-chan. Its pretty simple, I've only learnt very basic grammar (1st half of Minna no Nihongo if that means anything to anyone). Who he was, his origins in Owari, his career (burning Enrykuji, taking Kyoto, kicking out Yohshiaki and offing various daimyo), his "hobbies" and then his death and legacy.

But I need some help with some details and I need pictures (its got to have powerpoint to go with) and with blinking Sengoku Basara flooding the internet with bishounen nancy boys its hard for me to get them, at least using english language google. So bear with me:

1. I've read in a lot of sources Nobunaga was known as the "fool of Owari" in his youth, however, a cursory look at Japonius Tyrannus tells only that was known as simply Outsuke. Is Lamers simply being spartan in this academic book, or is that how Japanese source primary and secondary actually refere to him as?

2.About hobbies/cultural stuff , my reading again in the english (this maybe Turnbull stuff so it could be iffy) that Nobunaga like Tea ceremony, sumo, building nice castles and guns, now I know these all have some political importance use, so we can't necessarily extracpolate and call them affectations but I'm not doing a dissertation here.


3. Does anyone happen to have nice historical looking (i.e. they can Edo period stuff) of Nobunaga himself (I got the yellow background picture from this site), Matsunaga Hisahide, Ashikaga Yohshiaki, enryakuji or some other temple that pissed him off and some Japanese language period maps.

Sorry if it seems like its just shopping list, but I don't know where else to go, all the Japanese or Oriental Studies faculty here are scientists and linguists!

[Tornadoes28]

[owari no utsuke]

The Signore by Kunio Tsuji is a great novel. The novel can provide you with clues on Nobunaga and friends. If you can fork out the cash, the English version of Ota Gyuichi's Shincho-Ko ki is coming out soon as well. Ordered my copy and looking forward to it.
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[ltdomer98]

[ltdomer98]

[Mr No-Dachi]

Why would I buy it? I live across the road from 2nd largest university library in the world. But it won't probably get it before I do the presentation.

Thanks for the info and advice (and the relavant characters for google.jp).

[Obenjo Kusanosuke]

[Tornadoes28]