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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
According to Lamers, Nobunaga fielded an army totaling approximately 60,000 soldiers for his 1568 march to Kyoto to place Yoshiaki as the shogun. Nobunaga levied the men from four provinces, Owari, Mino, Ise, and Mikawa. A truly amazing fete since he had only finally conquered Mino the year before. It is interesting that it took so long for Nobunaga to subdue Mino. I know that Saito Tatsuoki was fairly secure in his stronghold on Mount Inaba but seeing as Nobunaga was able to assemble 60,000 soldiers only a year later, I wonder why he had such difficulty. The 60,000 soldiers in 1568 included men from Mino, so subtracting those soldiers from Mino, Nobunaga's army should still have been extremely large when facing Tatsuoki. Did Nobunaga really only receive a large infusion of soldiers by about 1566 to 1567? In 1560 he had about 3,000 soldiers. In 1568 he had 60,000. So in 1566-67, minus the Mino soldiers, Nobunaga must have had 40-45,000? He must have made a huge jump after 1565 when he had suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Tatsuoki.


I'm going to disagree somewhat with Tatsu, based on the fact that everything I remember reading states that taking Mino gave Nobunaga the resources necessary for further expansion, to include manpower. While he certainly increased his manpower between 1560 and the conquest of Mino (groups like the Hachisuka, etc. wouldn't have fallen under his numbers at Okehazama, but would by 1567, for example), Mino was at the time a richer province than Owari. Also, he wouldn't have been drawing soldiers from Ise before he had Mino.

In addition to bribing away Saito generals, remember that part of conquest in Sengoku Japan was absorbing the army of the vanquished. Defeat of the Saito meant their soldiers more or less became Nobunaga's. In this way, a daimyo could essentially double his size quickly. Victory and a "noble purpose" also caused men to flock to your banner. Defeating the Saito proved he could win (and that Okehazama wasn't a fluke), and that he was marching on Kyoto to restore the Shogunate was a "noble cause" that might compel some to align with him when they wouldn't otherwise have had reason.

Last thing to consider--Nobunaga was pretty ahead of his time in terms of arming and incorporating the general populace into his army in the form of ashigaru. It's fairly conceivable that a large number of his army in 1568 was under his control in 1560, but not mobilized in a military manner because the resources and control wasn't in place. By 1568 it was. And had been extended to the larger province of Mino. 1560-1567 can be looked at as a lot of emplacement of processes, figuring out the whats and hows of mobilizing a populace. Because he spent 7 years figuring it out, he was able to replicate it much more quickly when he took new territory. All he had to do was overlay the template.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Concerning Mino. Didnt the Mino Triumvirs Ando Morinari, Inaba Ittetsu and Ujiie Bokuzen defect to Nobunaga, bringing most of "Saito" armies with them, so yes.Nobunaga did gain most of Mino´s military assets right away.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I went back and reviewed the section in Japonius Tyrannus on the expansion of Nobunaga's vassal band. The top level of Nobunaga's future political and military hierarchy was formed during the pacification of Owari. Lamers then states that with the conquest of Mino, Nobunaga's vassal band entered a new phase by broadening its middle and lower echelons. It was a slow process that included not just victory in battle but the winning over the barons and petty lords of Mino. In 1564 Nobunaga made his first contacts with the Mino Triumvirs. The Triumvirs did not officially part with Saito Tatsuoki until 1567 just before Mount Inaba fell.

It was of course common for Nobunaga to adopt the vassal bands of his deceased or defeated enemies. I had not realized that Mino had enlarged Nobunaga's military to the degree it did. Now it makes more sense why it took so long for Nobunaga to conquer Mino. In 1568, Nobunaga invaded Kyoto with up to 60,000. Even if that is inflated he no doubt had several tens of thousands of soldiers in 1568. This is an amazing achievement seeing as he had no more than about 700-800 in 1551 and maybe 3000 in 1560. Lamers stated that in a numerical sense, the great leap forward occurred between 1560 and 1567, with the conquest of Mino and the incorporation of the Mino warriors into his Vassal system. It was this expansion of Nobunaga's vassal band that allowed him to concern himself directly with the "affairs of the state" (tenka no gi) for the next 14 years.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree that the military might of Mino province was propably matching the one Owari could produce when used in unison.
The fact that Saito Dosan and specially Tatsuoki both could fend of Oda, while they had other enemies as well.
About the strength of the Oda army that marched to Kyoto. I have to wonder how much of it counted for the troops of Clans who had reacently alied with Oda, like Asai or were in odds with Miyoshi/ Matsunaga alliance at the moment. For example Kitabatake of Ise had been at odds with Miyoshi from 1566. Tsutsui Junkei of Yamato was mentioned to have made an alliance with Oda, once their armies marched towards the capital. He also seem to have been under a lot of pressure from Matsunaga Hisahide before Oda entered Yamashiro area. It would be great if there would be a source counting for who actually were part f the Oda army that marched into Kyoto.
Apart that.For example Shimazu, Hojo,Takeda and Uesugi.We have certain documents that tell how many ashigaru would have companied a mounted Bushi, but is there anything like that for Oda. Maybe in deed Oda had larger percentage of Ashigaru in their armies, still i have to wonder, would that have only applied to Owari forces, or did Nobunaga change also compositions of his vassal armies from other provinces?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kagemusha wrote:
I agree that the military might of Mino province was propably matching the one Owari could produce when used in unison.
The fact that Saito Dosan and specially Tatsuoki both could fend of Oda, while they had other enemies as well.
About the strength of the Oda army that marched to Kyoto. I have to wonder how much of it counted for the troops of Clans who had reacently alied with Oda, like Asai or were in odds with Miyoshi/ Matsunaga alliance at the moment. For example Kitabatake of Ise had been at odds with Miyoshi from 1566. Tsutsui Junkei of Yamato was mentioned to have made an alliance with Oda, once their armies marched towards the capital. He also seem to have been under a lot of pressure from Matsunaga Hisahide before Oda entered Yamashiro area. It would be great if there would be a source counting for who actually were part f the Oda army that marched into Kyoto.
Apart that.For example Shimazu, Hojo,Takeda and Uesugi.We have certain documents that tell how many ashigaru would have companied a mounted Bushi, but is there anything like that for Oda. Maybe in deed Oda had larger percentage of Ashigaru in their armies, still i have to wonder, would that have only applied to Owari forces, or did Nobunaga change also compositions of his vassal armies from other provinces?


The 60,000 soldiers Nobunaga had for his 1568 march on Kyoto according to Lamers included forces from Owari, Mino, Ise, and Mikawa. It did not include forces from Asai. By the time Nobunaga had acceded his father, he had forged an alliance with Saito Dosan. Saito even provided soldiers on at least one occasion for Nobunaga in fending off the Imagawa. But after Saito was murderded by his son Yoshiteru, Mino became the enemy. Nobunaga battled Yoshiteru and later Saito Tatsuoki.

As Domer mentioned, Mino was a richer province and it was only after Nobunaga conquered Mino that his vassal band grew to such a large extent. I have not seen numbers anywhere about the size of the Mino armed forces in comparison to the number Nobunaga fielded against them between 1560 and 1567. Nobunaga no doubt grew his armed forces from approximately 3000 in 1560 to a larger number prior to finally taking Mount Inaba. But how Nobunaga's armed forces compared to Mino's prior to finally defeating them I do not know. I would assume for most of that time period that the Mino forces were probably greater until Nobunaga started to encourage or force various Mino vassals to switch sides. It must have been more like a scale. Early on the Mino forces probably outnumbered the Oda forces but between 1560 and 1567 the scale slowly tipped toward the Oda side in terms of size of the armies.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A different touch to a Nobunaga painting. Link comes from Nobunaga 1534. I like the top painting with a mix of green and orange.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunga_1534/archives/51855680.html
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
A different touch to a Nobunaga painting. Link comes from Nobunaga 1534. I like the top painting with a mix of green and orange.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunga_1534/archives/51855680.html


Link broken.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It worked last night. Sad

Try this: http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/

http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/archives/51855680.html
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
It worked last night. :(

Try this: http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/

http://blog.livedoor.jp/nobunaga_1534/archives/51855680.html



It works now! In the first painting, the two-toned colors present a flamboyant style (more like Henry VIII), which suits Nobunaga. In the second, pale version, it looks more like a tired retainer who did dictation for Nobunaga.

I expected Nobunaga's face to look more fierce, but perhaps it was the same then as nowadays, Japanese are told to look serious when their photo is taken, so no glaring or smiling for paintings either.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought he looked rather "wispy."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is a new magazine from Rekishi jin on our dear leader Nobunaga. It looks very good and cannot wait to get my hands on it.

http://www.rekishijin.jp/newmagazine201107/
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You can now download one of the 2010 Okehazama festival books. Very Happy Nice pictures from the festival and the people who created the Nobunaga and Yoshimoto statues.

http://okehazama.net/modules/osirase/index.php?page=article&storyid=163
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For those of us who are Japanese language-impaired, I found an English version of the Nobunaga scroll story on Yomiuri online: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/culture/T110613004440.htm . It is funny you should liken the style to Henry VIII, Gracia. When I read the description and then saw the picture, I nearly exclaimed, "Good lord! So that's what they were hiding. Nobunaga was a Frenchman!"
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
onnamusha wrote:
For those of us who are Japanese language-impaired, I found an English version of the Nobunaga scroll story on Yomiuri online: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/features/culture/T110613004440.htm . It is funny you should liken the style to Henry VIII, Gracia. When I read the description and then saw the picture, I nearly exclaimed, "Good lord! So that's what they were hiding. Nobunaga was a Frenchman!"


Well, the Renaissance fashion was very ostentatious. Perhaps, all kings, queens, emperors, empresses and wannabe shoguns have a megalomaniac streak in common. Queen Elizabeth began wearing over-the-top styles as she became older. Lady Gaga would look mousy compared to Gloriana!

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/monarchs/eliz1.html
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is freaking hilarious clip! Nobunaga and Oichi dancing together. It made my day. Laughing If the clip needs to be moved to another thread, move it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKdSRDGsnDA&feature=related
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wish I were able to go to this lecture series. Reading the Shincho-Ko ki with Kirino Sakujin and looks interesting. Here is the link. http://t.co/DhXeGR3m
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is an article stating that Nobunaga's roots did not come from the Taira, but probably the Inbe? According to Lamers, the Oda roots were most likely the off-shoots of the Fujiwara family. It is confusing at times. Laughing
http://bit.ly/rAqBmr
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is another magazine on the battle of Okehazama I found on the net this morning. http://noburabu.blog16.fc2.com/blog-entry-706.html

Also I bought a book called Nobunaga no Angou or Nobunaga's Code. The book explains there was a code when Azuchi Castle was built. Sounds like a Da Vinci Code novel to me. Has anyone heard of this book before? The author is Nakami Toshio.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can you post some information here that you find interesting or new from the magazine and the book?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do not have the magazine yet. I know for sure Mr. Okehazama (Wataru Kajino) will probably have it. Plan to e-mail the Kajino's to find out. As for the book, have not started either. Just bought today.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is the Jaike or Serpent Pond story that is found in the Shincho-Ko ki. I was able to visit the pond and take some photos. You can kill two birds with one stone if you stop at Hira Station, Aichi Prefecture. You can visit the Jaike pond and the Hira Castle landmark (Sassa Narimasa's place).

http://www.otsuke.blogspot.com/2012/02/jaike.html
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I really enjoyed reading this thread. A big thank you to Obenjo Kusanosuke for posting this and keeping it alive as well as everyone else who contributed.

I am not an expert on the Sengoku era and defer to historians who are. I've only recently gotten interested in the period again by listening to the excellent SA Archives podcast.

As shrewd a daimyo as he was, I can't help but think he lucked out in a couple of ways. First of all, as the guys on the podcast have pointed out, Nobunaga was in an ideal position to move on the capital after defeating the Imagawa and taking Mino. There are many cases during the Sengoku era when daimyo established themselves in their respective regions against other major powers but, because of their remoteness, never had a realistic chance of making a move toward the "home provinces."

At the same time, Nobunaga's victory at Okehazama -- which really launched his career -- appears to have a pretty even gamble. If his surprise attack hadn't caught the Imagawa by surprise or he had attempted a frontal assault, the Oda likely would have been subdued. I suppose every great military genius has their Rubicon to cross, but it seems as though Nobunaga's good fortune had just as much to do with his rise to power as his political and martial prowess.

On top of that, he also owed his expansion into Mino to the instability there after Saito Dosan's death. Had he gone up against a Uesugi Kenshin or a Mori Motonari closer to home rather than a destabilized daimyo, his ascendancy might have been significantly delayed, if not stopped. Granted, a lot of daimyo were unstable during the Sengoku period, but as noted above, there were plenty of daimyo who had to contend with powerful local rivals before they could even think about unification.

Accepting that not all things are in humanity's hands to control, I still see some issues with some of the things Nobunaga could have done but didn't. Why didn't he depose Ashikaga Yoshiaki before he did? Why did he seek to control Yoshiaki from 1568 to 1573 when, ultimately, keeping Yoshiaki around backfired in the establishment of anti-Oda coalitions and a source of legitimacy for anti-Oda feeling? In essence, it seems as though Nobunaga would have been better off tearing down the old institutions (if it was really never his intention to position himself as a continuation of the shogunate) than trying to "steer" it for as long as he did.

I sense there is probably plenty here to rebut already but I will make one last note and then finish. Should Nobunaga have been so confident that the Azai would honor the marriage between his sister and Nagamasa and not side with the Asakura when he went to war against the latter? According to the SA Wiki and the Azai Sandai-ki, it sounds as though the Azai almost instantly decided to honor its "generations-old" alliance with the Asakura instead. It's possible Nobunaga knew that he could beat both, but then again Anegawa seems to have been a near run thing at points.

I have tremendous respect for Nobunaga (and not just for the line of figure skaters he founded). However, I think his reputation is a bit inflated. Gifu castle and "Tenka Fubu" all suggest he had ambitions to end the civil war period, but I think it was equal parts genius and "right place/right time" that got him to where he was by the time he died.

I don't think it's really been touched on yet in this thread, but what do we make of the motivations for Akechi Mitsuhide to kill Nobunaga? The SA Wiki cites the death of Mitsuhide's mother and unspecified "public insults" about Mitsuhide by Nobunaga as possible reasons. Do we believe these suggestions or are they just anecdotal? And even if we simply don't know, can't we fault Nobunaga for either managing his subordinates poorly, not realizing possibilities for his betrayal, or both?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
I don't think it's really been touched on yet in this thread, but what do we make of the motivations for Akechi Mitsuhide to kill Nobunaga? The SA Wiki cites the death of Mitsuhide's mother and unspecified "public insults" about Mitsuhide by Nobunaga as possible reasons. Do we believe these suggestions or are they just anecdotal? And even if we simply don't know, can't we fault Nobunaga for either managing his subordinates poorly, not realizing possibilities for his betrayal, or both?
Well, the story about his mother is certainly late.

He himself wrote that it was to advance his son-in-law Hosokawa Tadaoki, and offered the Hosokawas either Setsu or Waksa and Tajima. (letter to the Hosokawas on 6/9)

My favorite theory is that the imperial court asked Akechi to kill Nobunaga because he did not recognize their authority over the calendar.Wink

By the way, Nobunaga wrote to Tadaoki in the closing of a letter, "Never let you guard down in anything." He did not follow his own advice for once.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, it sounds like the stuff about Mitsuhide's mother was an invention conceived at a later date. Although it is still more subtle than some of the other motivations I've heard assigned to his betrayal.

One interpretation I've favored is that Mitsuhide considered himself a sophisticated, sensitive intellectual among parvenu warriors who were short tempered and "undeserving" of their newfound status. The fact that he moved against Nobunaga on the assumption that the Hosokawa would side with him I think indicates that he believed the old order would naturally rally around him in the power vacuum. In his arrogance, he did not anticipate that other daimyo, even his friends and in-laws, would hedge their bets until a clear winner in the power struggle was decided.

That said, it still baffles me why Nobunaga would permit Mitsuhide into his inner circle, which was almost entirely made up of his Owari followers. Mitsuhide had a different background, outlook, way of doing things, etc. so I am not sure where the trust came from.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The death of Mitsuhide's mother is a false tragic Sengoku like story according Nobunaga historian Taniguchi Katsuhiro. If you read Brandon Schindewolf's thesis, Toki wa ima, it will have everything you need on the Honnoji. Page 44, from Brandon's thesis where he quotes Taniguchi.

"a tragic, 'Sengoku-like' story which appeals to the reader, and it is clear that is not a true occurrence." Also the siege of Yagami Castle went so well that the Hatano brothers were forced to surrender by the own men. So there there was no need for hostages to be exchanged.
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