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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:54 am    Post subject: I would like to know where Turnbull got his information Reply with quote
Thanks for the reply. I would really like to know where turnbull received his information from. when I read the passage, I asked myself. where did he get it from. I do not believe it. I did put in my book Okehazama 1560 which is soon be published to to give some thought. I did not find the garbage in the Mikawa Monogatari. If it is the Edo fictional realm, where is it? If you where it came. Let me know.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
I remember a story about Ieyasu almost killing himself and being talked out of it, but that's all I remember. My impression at the time was that it was more of a legend than fact. I don't remember the circumstances - maybe someone with one of the two Ieyasu biographies could find it...?


Another possible "legendary" occurence of Ieyasu having a sudden death wish was that, after the Takeda's second attack at Mikatagahara, Ieyasu's desire to charge into the Takeda lines to free up its trapped generals was rather to go down in style than a real attempt to liberate his generals.

Of course, we all know that Natsume Yoshinobu persuaded him to retreat and took his place as he charged to his death. However, another interpretation that I have seen is that Ieyasu's retainers in fact "forcibly" stopped his horse from going further in his death charge and instead directed him away from the battlefield.

Of course, it might be pure legend, hearsay, or plain nonsense. You guys have far more sources to verify if this was fact or fiction. Just wanted to share this tidbit and, possibly, prove that this interpretation was true or false. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
i would like to chime in on Nobunaga's softer side.
No Obenjo, it is not about Rannmaru's chocolate buns or Maeda Toshiie's soft hands! Laughing

Most of these examples come from Neil McMullin's Buddhism and the State in Sixteenth-Century Japan, pp. 84-85.

On 6 February 1572 he ordered medical doctors from the Tendai temple Kannonji to treat Matsui Yukan who was sick with a turmor.

In 1573 Nobunaga saw one of grunts walking in bare feet covered with blood and he took from his waist a pair of sandals that he had from his days as a young lad as a lucky charm. He gave the sandals to the blood covered man.

The most famous one of all is the letter to Hideyoshi's wife Nene. There is no date, but Mc Mullin suggests that it was written in 1576 or 1577.

"I admired your features and your appearance twice as much as the last time I met you. It is said that Tokichiro unceasingly express dissatisfaction [with you]: this is beyond words, disgraceful. No matter how he might search, that bald rat could never again find a wife equal of you. From now on be steadfast; have the dignity befitting a wife and do not give in to feelings of jealousy and the like. In your role as a woman it is necessary to leave some things unsaid. I want you to show this letter to Hashiba."


This one comes from Kusudo Yoshiaki's Fuuunji Nobunaga to Hiun no Onnatachi pp. 16-17.

It has to do with the passing of Kitsuno. Nobunaga was in tears and heart broken. I can see why. Kitsuno actually cared for Nobunaga and had the patience to deal with him.

I had a discussion with a few not long ago. Some say that Nobunaga never fully recovered after Kitsuno's death.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another dimension to Nobunaga’s soft side was that he also established a bakery and its sweets became a hit across Sengoku Japan.



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is even a letter dated 15 November 1554 where Nobunaga forgave the Yamaguchi family. The Yamaguchi where ruined by Nobuhide and Nobunaga made sure that their landholdings be restored according to the Yamaguchi's widow wishes.

Obenjo, you crack me up! Laughing
The cream buns are chocolate, vanilla, and berry flavored correct? Very Happy I think Nobunaga got rid of the uesama dango and preferred Ranmaru's cream buns since they are made with love!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is even more evidence that Nobunaga was the Big Shot in the Shokutoku Domei. Tatsunoshi stated earlier about Ieyasu's feelings towards Imagawa Ujizane. Sadler's book, The Maker of Modern Japan, does a decent job explaining it on pages 73-74.

"Afterwards he (Ujizane) went to Kyoto, where he seems to have shone at football, but not to have impressed Nobunaga with his capacity as a lord of provinces. For when more than ten years later Ieyasu was given Suruga he suggested to Nobunaga that he would share the province with Ujizane, to whom he had always been well disposed. But Nobunaga would not hear of it. Ujizane was a fellow providence did not favour, he observed."

Nobunaga knew Ujizane was never fit for the job. A wise decision since Ujizane was a lame duck. Ujizane's old man was better. Ieyasu could do nothing with Ujizane until after Nobunaga's death. In my opinion, if Ieyasu wanted some landing sharing with some old pals or something simular, he had to ask Nobunaga's blessings.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Samurai Archives and some of you guys' blogs are listed on this crazy video.

959 Oda Nobunaga 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7js6gthkPA
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:
Samurai Archives and some of you guys' blogs are listed on this crazy video.

959 Oda Nobunaga 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7js6gthkPA


And it is a crazy video. I can't believe he's using the SA to try to support that crap, since we routinely disagree with all of it.
The comments on the video are priceless. It's amazing that so many people will willingly believe anything they see on the net.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have seen this video before and did not care for it at all. I have to agree with Tatsunoshi on this one. The person ho made the video sure drank the Kool-Aid. I think the person who made this video has more than one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What the? Huh? Was there a point? I started skipping through, because another random web page thrown up on the screen was going to hurt my brain.

I'd probably argue with him, but I'm not sure what he is saying (or trying to say).

-Josh
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
--Returning to the relationship between Ieyasu and Nobunaga, it's been speculated that they shared some kind of "childhood friendship" during Ieyasu's forced residence in Kiyosu... Is this some Edo fantasy too XD ?

Also a movie about Nobunaga talked about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJantYB1Qz0
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Daeva-kun wrote:
--Returning to the relationship between Ieyasu and Nobunaga, it's been speculated that they shared some kind of "childhood friendship" during Ieyasu's forced residence in Kiyosu... Is this some Edo fantasy too XD ?
I don't get it Never ever heard that one before. Childhood friendship during Ieyasu's forced residence in Kiyosu? Huh? Where are you getting this info?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ieyasu (in 1548) was kidnapped by Oda Nobuhide on his way to be a hostage to the Imagawa. That's probably the topic at hand. He wasn't at Kiyosu, though. And I've seen in Manga them portrayed as friends, but off the top of my head I have no idea if this was true or not.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kitsuno is right about Nobuhide detaining little Motoyasu. At 5:55 AM my brain wasn't fully awake yet. Doh! That's what I get for checking in the forum when I should be sleeping!
Embarassed
And now that I am fully awake and fully functional, my sengoku senses are tingling. My memory is also a lot clearer. I think they met-- but as Kitsuno said, there is no evidence of them being friends.
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Last edited by Obenjo Kusanosuke on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
OH, sorry, I failed ^_^;
I don't know why I came up with Kiyosu... I was probably checking for other infos, stumbled over it and made messed with the data (the weather isn't helping)...

So, I dug around and found other infos about Ieyasu's whereabouts;

Nobunaga was in Nagoya castle, and I had three different location for Ieyasu:
- Kowatari Castle in Owari
- Mansho Temple (Manshoji) in Nagoya (there must be something wrong with this info-- Manshoji is in Yokosuka?)
- Atsuta Temple in Nagoya
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Daeva-kun wrote:
- Mansho Temple (Manshoji) in Nagoya (there must be something wrong with this info-- Manshoji is in Yokosuka?)


Not really. Just two different temples that happen to share the same name-not an uncommon thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought so, but when I google Manshoji the only result I get relates to Yokosuka--
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You'd probably get better results searching with kanji (and search with the kanji for Nagoya, 名古屋). Take your pick-万勝寺, 万正寺, 満昌寺, 萬松寺-so there are at least four Manshou Temples and probably a lot more than that.
If nothing turns up then, I'd say the Nagoya temple was either phased out/made into a Shinto shrine during the Meiji overhaul of Buddhist temples/Shinto Shrines in the late 19th century, or blown to hell by that fun-loving unindicted war criminal Curtis LeMay in WWII and never rebuilt.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
--Sounds like you're bullying me but I tried anyway XD
I got some result but who know what are they about?
I assume that I'll opt for your "I'd say the Nagoya temple was either phased out/made into a Shinto shrine during the Meiji overhaul of Buddhist temples/Shinto Shrines in the late 19th century" theory to avoid a serious case of Collapse by Googling.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Daeva-kun wrote:
--Sounds like you're bullying me but I tried anyway XD


Huh? Err...no...what I was doing was giving you more options to check out to find the temple in Nagoya.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ahah, I know XD
It's just that this method is a bit messy (if you don't know the language)-- The most of time you end up over turistic blogs where the author is mentioning, in this case, a certain Mansho temple on an article and Nagoya's typical food in another--

--It's almost as stressing as searching for the original names of the women who are famous just by their posthumous names-- You always end up with infos about temples D:
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe this link will help you out.

http://www.banshoji.or.jp/english.htm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bump I guess

I'm working on a piece of coursework which I've decided to have Nobunaga as the centrepiece. I've got access to pretty much all the English Language Material on Nobunaga and late Sengoku; Berry, Elison, Mcnullen and of course Lamers. The nature of the coursework demands I find and juggle differing interpretations of Nobunaga.

So basically juxtapositioning assertions of his revolutionary brutality on all sectors of society, that many historians seemed to attribute to him with less apocalyptic interpretations of Lamers.Basically was Nobunaga really "the Terror" or soemthing along those lines.

i.e. In her main chapter on Nobunaga Berry which is f course named "the Terror" and conjures up an image of Nobunaga's success and "centralism" creating a third coalition against of vastly greater proportions to the previous two, jeopardising the whole re-unification scheme, unti Hideyoshi come along and saves the day with Federalism.

Of course this interpretation has huge problems, there was no real massive counter-reactin in the offing, in fact far from it the very year of Nobunaga's death 1582 proved that massive conquests were possible were possible and local allies could be aquired in the final decisive campaign against the Takeda with help from the Hojo. In fact I would assert that the 1582 campaign shares many similarities with Hideyoshi's own in Kyushu and the Kanto, use of local disagreements and division, multi-pronged attack plans and above all overwhelming numbers, the only major difference was Hideyoshi's campaigns had an air of finality about them.

But I'd like to hear to other opinions particulerly because people have access to Japanese sources.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Daeva-kun wrote:
Ahah, I know XD
It's just that this method is a bit messy (if you don't know the language)


So learn the language I doubt it

My freshman year in college I had to write a paper for my theology class, and couldn't find enough sources in English. My prof looked at me when I complained and said, "so? What language did you study in HS?" "French" "So find some books in French." I did, faked my way through understanding theological concepts in French, and wrote the paper. Don't bitch about it, learn it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr No-Dachi wrote:
i.e. In her main chapter on Nobunaga Berry which is f course named "the Terror" and conjures up an image of Nobunaga's success and "centralism" creating a third coalition against of vastly greater proportions to the previous two, jeopardising the whole re-unification scheme, unti Hideyoshi come along and saves the day with Federalism.


Well, that's a simplification and misinterpretation of her work. His actions DO create a third coalition against him--it's just that by the time of his death, he's mostly overcome that, though not necessarily through his own actions. The Uesugi house is in turmoil that they cannot recover from due to Kenshin's death; the Takeda were a leaking ship with every rat jumping off, the Mori were ground down to the point that they were willing to discuss terms. Hideyoshi only came along and "saved the day" in the sense that quite possibly the outer elements could have used Nobunaga's death to reopen hostilities; they didn't. Berry attributes this partially (especially with the Mori, for obvious reasons) to Hideyoshi's ability to build coalitions rather than force confrontation.

Quote:
Of course this interpretation has huge problems, there was no real massive counter-reactin in the offing, in fact far from it the very year of Nobunaga's death 1582 proved that massive conquests were possible were possible and local allies could be aquired in the final decisive campaign against the Takeda with help from the Hojo. In fact I would assert that the 1582 campaign shares many similarities with Hideyoshi's own in Kyushu and the Kanto, use of local disagreements and division, multi-pronged attack plans and above all overwhelming numbers, the only major difference was Hideyoshi's campaigns had an air of finality about them.


The campaign had an air of finality for the Takeda, that's for sure. The only reason Hideyoshi's campaigns had more "finality" was that they came afterwards. Had Nobunaga lived, subjugated Shikoku, then Kyushu, then the Kanto/Hojo, etc., it's entirely possible it would have played out in similar manner--the Shimazu defeated on the battlefield, but not annihilated once they chose to submit, etc. Nobunaga was harsher and more resolute in his desire to destroy his enemies, but as you said he was certainly able to incorporate past foes into his forces, and did so frequently.
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