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kitsuno
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
*sigh*


Well? I'm hardly an Oda fanboy, I don't really care one way or the other, but I'm just playing counterpoint to your point. Obviously the "odds" were against him, but after a certain amount of preparation, the need to rely on luck is minimized, sometimes to the point of winning not being lucky at all, but the direct result of planning and preparation.

Maybe the weather or the fact that the enemy soldiers weren't on high alert could be considered "lucky" - what degree of luck is that? You could been dropped on your head as a baby, or hit by a car at age 10 - is the fact that this didn't happen "lucky"?

I think it all boils down to one thing - did Oda Nobunaga think he'd win or not based on all he knew before he rode out - If he thought he was going to win, I'd say that luck is not really a factor. If he thought he'd probably lose, then winning was lucky.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:


Maybe the weather or the fact that the enemy soldiers weren't on high alert could be considered "lucky" - what degree of luck is that? You could been dropped on your head as a baby, or hit by a car at age 10 - is the fact that this didn't happen "lucky"?

I think it all boils down to one thing - did Oda Nobunaga think he'd win or not based on all he knew before he rode out - If he thought he was going to win, I'd say that luck is not really a factor. If he thought he'd probably lose, then winning was lucky.


That was makes Neilson's thesis so interesting. After reading his paper and Wataru Kajino's (local Okehazama historian) book, I do believe Nobunaga had a plan. The weather sure did play a role and it was a hot. It was so hot that the Imagawa soldiers were wilting in the heat and the with the gifts that the Men of the Fields brought, it was sure tempting to stop and rest.

Sure the Uesama had some luck too. That luck was probably from the Atsuta Shrine he visited earlier in the morning. Neilson goes into great detail on this. Asking the Gods for help does not hurt, but his soldiers did take comfort that he did stop and prayed. Oh yeah, the coin toss at the shrine made sure that the Uesama was going to carry the day. Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kitsuno wrote:
Saru wrote:
*sigh*


Well? I'm hardly an Oda fanboy, I don't really care one way or the other, but I'm just playing counterpoint to your point. Obviously the "odds" were against him, but after a certain amount of preparation, the need to rely on luck is minimized, sometimes to the point of winning not being lucky at all, but the direct result of planning and preparation.


I totally see what you're getting at, but even if he used tactics and contacts, I am not sure how exactly Nobunaga manages to get a much larger army to stop at a certain point in accordance with his will. Additionally, for his "plan" to succeed, he had to ensure that the enemy soldiers weren't just being irresponsible and overconfident, but to such a degree that a sudden surprise attack could accomplish what it did.

As for comparing tactics and strategy in a battle to going through life and not having some accident happen to you... Obviously that's not the same thing. It's a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Nobunaga was not a baby at the mercy of someone holding him. He made a decision and, while as I have said time and time again, he no doubt did some planning to compensate for his unfavorable position, there's no denying that he was relying on good fortune to favor him. It wasn't like he could raid the main camp, retreat if they repelled him, and then try again.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be extremely critical of Nobunaga. Yes, what he chose to do was irrational, but at least he had the courage to either make his own fate or die trying. (Of course, he didn't exactly let the men under him choose their own fate either, but it didn't work that way back then.)

As it happened, Nobunaga's gamble paid off and now he's considered one of the three most important daimyo of the Sengoku era, if not the whole history of Japan, and he has everything from memorials to video games named in his honor.

In the interest of changing the topic, can someone discuss Nobunaga's relationship with the Jesuit missionary, Gnecchi-Soldo Organtino? I was reading about Takayama Ukon and it mentioned that Nobunaga used Organtino to persuade Takayama to comply with Nobunaga's will, as the alternative was Nobunaga ordering the persecution of Christians in Japan (not sure if this was a reliable source). A lot has been made about Nobunaga's relationship with Buddhism and the Buddhist institutions of Sengoku Japan. What was his relationship with Christianity?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lamers has some information on it.

Lamers p.173 "Someone like Frois, who knew Nobunaga better than any of his colleagues, suspected that the nature of Nobunaga's interest had a fundamental drawback. Nobunaga bestowed favours on the Jesuits because they were foreigners and a novelty in themselves; he would never have bestowed similar favours on them had they been his own countrymen."

Frois knew and praised Nobunaga's qualities, but lacked the most important thing-God.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Saru wrote:
kitsuno wrote:
Saru wrote:
*sigh*


Well? I'm hardly an Oda fanboy, I don't really care one way or the other, but I'm just playing counterpoint to your point. Obviously the "odds" were against him, but after a certain amount of preparation, the need to rely on luck is minimized, sometimes to the point of winning not being lucky at all, but the direct result of planning and preparation.


I totally see what you're getting at, but even if he used tactics and contacts, I am not sure how exactly Nobunaga manages to get a much larger army to stop at a certain point in accordance with his will. Additionally, for his "plan" to succeed, he had to ensure that the enemy soldiers weren't just being irresponsible and overconfident, but to such a degree that a sudden surprise attack could accomplish what it did.

As for comparing tactics and strategy in a battle to going through life and not having some accident happen to you... Obviously that's not the same thing. It's a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Nobunaga was not a baby at the mercy of someone holding him. He made a decision and, while as I have said time and time again, he no doubt did some planning to compensate for his unfavorable position, there's no denying that he was relying on good fortune to favor him. It wasn't like he could raid the main camp, retreat if they repelled him, and then try again.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be extremely critical of Nobunaga. Yes, what he chose to do was irrational, but at least he had the courage to either make his own fate or die trying. (Of course, he didn't exactly let the men under him choose their own fate either, but it didn't work that way back then.)

As it happened, Nobunaga's gamble paid off and now he's considered one of the three most important daimyo of the Sengoku era, if not the whole history of Japan, and he has everything from memorials to video games named in his honor.

In the interest of changing the topic, can someone discuss Nobunaga's relationship with the Jesuit missionary, Gnecchi-Soldo Organtino? I was reading about Takayama Ukon and it mentioned that Nobunaga used Organtino to persuade Takayama to comply with Nobunaga's will, as the alternative was Nobunaga ordering the persecution of Christians in Japan (not sure if this was a reliable source). A lot has been made about Nobunaga's relationship with Buddhism and the Buddhist institutions of Sengoku Japan. What was his relationship with Christianity?


My view on Nobunaga's interest with the Jesuit missionary were:

-wanted to better understand Europeans behaviors.
-almost like a science lab, to observe a group of people totally unfamiliar to him.
-try to understand a religion he was not familiar with that could control actions of followers.
-study if there was a way they could help his goals in life.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is a Nobunaga forum that will be held next February in Gifu. Owada Tetsuo will be speaking.

http://www.nobunaga-kyokan.jp/blog/archives/2012/12/5.html
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
There is a Nobunaga forum that will be held next February in Gifu. Owada Tetsuo will be speaking.

http://www.nobunaga-kyokan.jp/blog/archives/2012/12/5.html


Tell him to call me. I think he's mad at me or something, he won't return my texts. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is another Nobunaga event that will take place on February 24.

http://www.kentei-uketsuke.com/nobunaga/

If you click at the renshuu mondai bar, there is a ten question Nobunaga quiz that is quite fun.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
>whimper<

Sigh.

No one ever has sengoku fora in Indiana. Sad
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is the English translation of the Battle of Muraki 1554 in Elisonas/Lamers The Chronicle of Lord Nobunaga.

http://otsuke.blogspot.com/2013/02/muraki.html

I was lucky to visit the Muraki landmark last year. Many thanks to the Kajino family who took me there.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
>whimper<

Sigh.

No one ever has sengoku fora in Indiana. Sad


So....start your own? I'd be there. Anything to get out of Louisiana...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man, If I had the time and money I would love to visit Indiana and Louisiana, as well as a whole lot of other places stateside. Spending a few months this coming fall based out of Kamakura so money is tight now that I am retired. I guess it always looks better in someone else's backyard. John
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
Man, If I had the time and money I would love to visit Indiana and Louisiana, as well as a whole lot of other places stateside. Spending a few months this coming fall based out of Kamakura so money is tight now that I am retired. I guess it always looks better in someone else's backyard. John


If I were nearer to New Orleans, than perhaps I'd feel differently, but after a decade in Korea, Japan, and Hawaii, rural Louisiana is a change I am not happy about. The lack of "civilization" is more reminiscent of my time in Afghanistan than anything else. A Navy comrade of mine in AF loved the dark sky (since we had no lights on at night on base), saying it reminded him of being aboard ship in the ocean; I replied that I absolutely (insert expletives for emphasis) hated it, and couldn't wait to get back to the neon glow of the night lights of Shibuya and Shinjuku. I like cities. I like Japan. Louisiana is neither.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think I know what you mean. I have lived in an Eskimo (Inuit) settlement on the coast of the Arctic Ocean (Beaufort Sea) for over 30 years, 900 people, no roads out except in the winter. Some episodes of Ice Road Trucker were done here. Most of it bullshit. If it wasn't for travel I would absolutely go bonkers, and of course my satellite eyes upon the world, which is how I am able to post here. It's all relative. John
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is a You Tube video of local Okehazama historian Wataru Kajino. He gives a brief history of the area, geography, the battle, and the differences between the Shincho-Ko ki and Shinchoki. I have been fortunate to able to meet Mr. Kajino a few times. He is an open-minded and kind man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvfIqp73eWc
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For all you Honnoji Rebellion buffs out there, there will be a restaurant opening near the Honnoji on June 2. Menu consists of Nobunaga;s Last supper and Nobunaga Curry.

Link: http://japanworld.info/?p=1140
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
For all you Honnoji Rebellion buffs out there, there will be a restaurant opening near the Honnoji on June 2. Menu consists of Nobunaga;s Last supper and Nobunaga Curry.

Link: http://japanworld.info/?p=1140


Who the hell is "Naobinaga"? Still, I wasn't planning on going to Kyoto this summer while in Japan, but I might have to now.
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I asked the same question myself Domer. I do plan to visit the place in the fall. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here is a newspaper article about the restaurant that is about to open.

http://bit.ly/18yaXw7
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
owari no utsuke wrote:
Here is a newspaper article about the restaurant that is about to open.

http://bit.ly/18yaXw7


What kind of food do they have?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
What kind of food do they have?

http://www.shinchou-saryou.jp/restaurant/

Nobunaga Saryou
http://www.shinchou-saryou.jp

Samurai Cafe & Bar Shishin
http://www.universalpeace.co.jp/shi-shin.html
http://karasuma.keizai.biz/headline/1462/

NINJA KYOTO Restaurant&Labyrinth
http://www.ninja-kyoto.co.jp/
http://karasuma.keizai.biz/headline/1690/

Kyoto Bozu Bar (Bozu is Buddhist monk)
http://bozu-bar.jp/
http://karasuma.keizai.biz/headline/1242/
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kyoto Monk Bar. Interesting. I will have to look for that next time I'm there.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope it's not a bad thing to post here? I'm just looking into Okehazama again and I happen to see the talk here...

I wonder if the "we fight and take down as many enemies as we can before we die" mentality gave the Oda troops adrenaline boost? A certain General Wang from China trained his troops to have that kind of state of mind every time they march out into battle and was renowned for successfully destroying an army of 50,000 with only 5,000.

The movie Onna Nobunaga's version explained that Nobunaga had his (well, her) folk dress up as peasants and infiltrate Imagawa's camp to offer wine and food and lull them to lower their guard.

The rain was obviously luck. Nobody could predict the weather. If it didn't rain, wonder if the Oda troops would be the ones who lost...
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't know if you can really "train" someone to have that attitude, or at least I am not sure how constructive it would really be. Not only is self-preservation a natural instinct, but if I'm in a fight, I want the guy next to me to be interested in defeating the enemy AND surviving the battle, and if I have to choose, more the latter than the former.

I am sure that, for several of the samurai at Okehazama and other similarly lopsided battles, they bought into the bushido mentality of preferring an honorable death to dishonorable surrender. But I can't help but feel that a good number of them, plus probably most of the regular rank and file soldiers, would have (if it was up to them) preferred relatively long lives with their loved ones with food in their belly to "glorious" deaths that most people probably wouldn't remember. I mean, the main reason we talk about the Oda and their retainers is because they won and went on to keep doing great things. No one really talks about the minor clans that were just steamrolled by the Oda, Hojo, Mori, Shimazu, etc.

As for whether or not the rain mattered, it's really hard to say. I can't help but feel that the Imagawa's apparent laxity and complacence had as much to do it with it, if not more so.

An interesting Sengoku persona most people don't mention is Sessai Choro/Taigen Sessai, the uncle of Imagawa Yoshimoto. He was a Zen monk and a talented commander; he defeated the Oda and was responsible for bringing the Matsudaira family under Imagawa control. He died in 1555. If he had been around for Okehazama, that might have also been a big difference... I can't find a lot of info on him outside of the Samurai Archives site.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bullshido?
This thread is a trainwreck

That aside, the Bukoyawa: Maeno Ke Monjo (Campfire Tales: The Collected Documents of the Maeno family) has a ton of info about Okehazama, it just depends on if the documents are legit or not.
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