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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
While I haven't read much on the topic of kōbu gattai, it seems that the daimyo and court would have an increased role in the decision-making of the nation-working with the daimyo to eventually reach their initial goal of ousting all foreigners from Japan (since the whole idea of kōbu gattai was to have the Bakufu, court, and daimyo working towards a unified goal). However, in practice this didn't work for the same reason that the Abe-era Bakufu's entreaties to the court and daimyo didn't work-each of the involved parties was more interested in how they could put their interests and political power first rather than what was best for the country-especially after Ii was killed. Without the perceived threat of 'Ogre Ii' to keep the malcontents in line, there was little in the way of roadblocks to insurgents.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
First of all, I think it is safe to say that we've reached the conclusion that with the help of our friend, Hindsight-san, that the Ansei Purge was not as evil and draconian as it could have been. Ii Naosuke kept his katana sheathed for the most part.[/b]


This is still bothering me somewhat - let's not forget that the higher your rank in Tokugawa Japan the more lenient your punishment. The lords got domiciliary confinement and those lower in rank lost their heads. Maybe there were many more who were executed or imprisoned whose names are simply not recorded. I don't know enough about it to know where to find this information.

Incidentally the extremists in Kyoto worked on a similar principle, murdering retainers in order to intimidate their lords.

Still working on kōbu gattai....
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There were two versions of kôbu gattai; the union of Court and Bakufu and the union of Court and daimyo. Sometimes these were the same thing and sometimes they weren’t. Kôbu gattai was a sort of moral slogan umbrella, rather like sonnôjôi, which sounded great but which sheltered so many differing personalities and opinions it ended up meaning nothing. Totman reminds us that there was a tendency in the Meiji period to over-praise some of the characters and events of the bakumatsu, and that this is true of the abstract political ideal that was kôbu gattai.

The marriage between Princess Kazy and the young shogun Iemochi was supposed to symbolise the rapprochement of Court and Bakufu. The Bakufu wanted the support and prestige of the Court and Kômei was persuaded to agree in order to gain more leverage for the Court with the Bakufu.

It was first proposed during Ii’s regime, as Obenjo has explained; Chôshû’s Nagai Uta made a far-sighted and rational proposal in 1861 to bring together the Court and the Bakufu with Chôshû as mediator (for which he was generally reviled and later forced to commit suicide), but what is generally known as kôbu gattai took off after Shimazu Hisamitsu, prompted by Chôshû’s rise in national politics and by the outrage in Kyoto at Princess Kazu’s marriage, arrived in the capital in 1862 with a large force and proceded to throw his weight around. The deaths of the main contendersin the succession struggle (Shimazu Nariakira, Tokugawa Nariaki and Ii himself) had opened up the way for reconciliation. Matsudaira Shungaku and Hitotsubashi Keiki were both pardoned and given new posts. Hisamitsu then became distracted by the Richardson affair, and withdrew to Kagoshima. Chôshû in the meantime continued to intrigue in Kyoto. In late 1862 extremist nobles held official posts within the Court, and Chôshû’s influence was unchallenged. Takechi Zuisan had gained influence over the young daimyo of Tosa; they were in the capital, the Chôshû heir was also present with his retinue and Kyoto was generally chaotic. In 1863 Sanjô Sanetomi and the other extremist noble Anenokôji Kintomo led an imperial mission to Edo which resulted in Iemochi’s visit to Kyoto and a public exchange of undertakings. But all this also reinforced Emperor Kômei’s fear of the extremists both within the Court and outside.

Hisamitsu returned to Kyoto demanding a harder line be taken, with the result that all daimyo expressed their customary “dissent by departure” (Craig), leaving Keiki alone to face Chôshû and the increasingly violent shishi. His response was to promise expulsion of foreigners from June 25th, knowing that it would be impossible. The kôbu gattai daimyo and nobles were all moderates by this time. They favoured unity, and kaikoku, but were powerless because they were not willing to resort to force, and were blocked by the power of Chôshû, Imperial prestige, and their fear of extremists. Chôshû took Keiki at his word and “obediently” attacked ships at Shimonoseki on the due date. Finally the coup d’etat of 18/8 changed everything overnight. Chôshû was completely sidelined for the time being and Satsuma and Aizu took control of the Court.

By the end of the year kôbugattai had a new lease of life. Tokugawa Keiki, Matsudaira Shungaku, Matsudaira Katamori, Date Munenari and Yamanouchi Yôdô had all become sanyo (participating daimyo). (Hisamitsu was not technically a daimyo so was appointed two weeks later.) They were, according to Craig, a powerful political organ, their decisions were taken in secret and were automatically approved by the Court. So what went wrong?

First there was no real administrative apparatus in place. Second the group were regarded with suspicion and horror by the fudai Bakufu officials in Edo. Third, their demands to join Bakufu councils merely exposed the weaknesses of the system. Fourth, all of them were powerful lords who had been deferred to since childhood: none of them was able to work as a negotiator in a political sense or to compromise. Moreover Keiki and Hisamitsu had developed a profound personal antipathy. Fifth: han parochialism still overrode the need for unity. The bakufu had actually become slightly more willing to get rid of the foreigners, after strengthening its military power, at the same time as the lords were starting to see the advantages trade might bring to their mainly impoverished han. The modification of sankin kôtai, one of the successes of the first meetings in 1862, had reminded daimyo how nice it was to save money and not have to traipse off to Edo.

The result was that in 1864 the lords again withdrew to their own domains. Chôshû made its attempt at a counter-coup, and suffered foreign attack in the Four Countries War, leaving it feeling (disingenuously) abandoned by the Bakufu and severely aggrieved. The Court lost the backing of the sanyo lords and since Chôshû was already out of the picture the result was an increase in the Bakufu’s power. And the result of that was that Satsuma realised it could not control the Bakufu and it began to look for other routes to its own power.

Maybe the princess and the shogun had a reasonably happy marriage (What did Prince Arisugawa think about losing his bride to be?) but they had no children and by the time Keiki became shogun in 1866 his situation was untenable.

Talk about byzantine Shocked My head is reeling. Please point out all the errors relief Also I realize I've gone way beyond Ii and his times Embarassed but one thing led to another.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
heron wrote:
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
First of all, I think it is safe to say that we've reached the conclusion that with the help of our friend, Hindsight-san, that the Ansei Purge was not as evil and draconian as it could have been. Ii Naosuke kept his katana sheathed for the most part.[/b]


This is still bothering me somewhat - let's not forget that the higher your rank in Tokugawa Japan the more lenient your punishment. The lords got domiciliary confinement and those lower in rank lost their heads. Maybe there were many more who were executed or imprisoned whose names are simply not recorded. I don't know enough about it to know where to find this information.
 
Marius Jansen, in his chapter on the Meiji Restoration in the book The Emergence of Meiji Japan, mentions on page 154 that over 100 sentences were handed down during the Ansei Purge. Eight people were condemned to death, six of them beheaded like common criminals. Yoshida Shoin was one of these six executed by beheading, and I don’t believe the total number of people sentenced was significantly over the 100 mark. The other sources I've seen say "around 100". Still, in my opinion, the number of people sentenced and executed seems relatively low considering what the Bakufu could have done if it really wanted to do so. Also, the Tokugawa Bakufu, was in many ways, a pre-modern police state. I’d be willing to wage one bu that records were, for the most part, meticulously kept when it came to such issues as rounding up political subversives. Any takers? Laughing

And Heron, regarding your piece on kōbu gattai, one word says it all: BRILLIANT! That was very good!

I don't have much to say in response. I think you summed it up quite nicely! Very Happy However, I will leave us with one more quote from our boy, Beasley. "[ kōbu gattai meant], a bolstering of bakufu authority by the use of the imperial prestige", while to the daimyō "it implied a renewed possibility of intervening in politics in the Emperor's name so as to achieve, among other things, an increse in baronial privilege." In the end, it is clear that the goals of both the shogunate and the daimyō hopelessly clashed.

Does anyone else have anything to add before we move onto Ii Tairo's assassination?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Does anyone else have anything to add before we move onto Ii Tairo's assassination?


My apologies for my perceived silence. But what has been posted thus far is excellent, and I have little to add. This is great. Fascinating read thus far.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dash, you're the expert on old out-of-print books. Beasley mentions Genji Yume Monogatari in one of his footnotes. It's on Google books
http://tinyurl.com/5pbkbz
but is there anywhere I can download it?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
With the mention of the assasination, I just have to ask: what was going on in the lower eschelons? It seems to me that many of the radicals actually out doing things and causing havoc were lower ranking samurai. Were they seeking a new period of gekokujo? Were they disaffected by the current status quo, or just gullible sheep led by skilled orators? And how much 'power' did they actually have?

My impression has been that much of the situation is complicated by these lower ranking samurai, who apparently feel they have little to lose by resorting to violence. I believe this ties in directly with the assassination of the Tairo and many others who might have helped otherwise stabilize the situation.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JLBadgley wrote:
With the mention of the assasination, I just have to ask: what was going on in the lower eschelons? It seems to me that many of the radicals actually out doing things and causing havoc were lower ranking samurai. Were they seeking a new period of gekokujo? Were they disaffected by the current status quo, or just gullible sheep led by skilled orators? And how much 'power' did they actually have?

My impression has been that much of the situation is complicated by these lower ranking samurai, who apparently feel they have little to lose by resorting to violence. I believe this ties in directly with the assassination of the Tairo and many others who might have helped otherwise stabilize the situation.

-Josh

Could it be that these guys were young, zealous patriots who bought the sermons of Nariaki and others who preached Imperial reverence hook line and sinker? Could it be that they actually believed that they were doing their patriotic duty to assassinate people who they believed were traitors to the Imperial Throne and the nation? I tend to think that this was defining rationale for the rank-and-file violent extremists.

Again, things destabilized rapidly after Perry arrived and these hotheads thought it was their duty to enact jōi and eliminate “traitors” that stood in their way. This was an extremely emotional issue and patriotism and nationalism were pulling hard at the heartstrings. It definitely was the case with some ringleaders of shi-shi cells, such as Takechi Hanpeita were looking for a means of upward mobility, a kind of new gekokujō. Heck, even the leaders of the Shinsengumi, Kondo Isami and Hijikata Toshizo believed that the Bakumatsu period was creating Sengoku-style gekokujō opportunities for themselves. These lowly ronin became Tokugawa hatamoto and Kondo even thought that if the pro-Tokugawa forces were victorious in the Boshin War, he’d be made a daimyō! And while I think you’ve raised a very good question, Josh, I believe we have to keep in mind that the whole shi-shi movement and violent outbursts of sonnō jōi did not blossom until AFTER Ii Naosuke’s assassination. Also, random shi-shi did not kill Ii. It was pretty much a specific group with some very particular grievances. Which brings us to the next post…
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


The Sakurada Mon Incident

Questions

1. How was Naosuke killed? Who wants to describe the details of his assassination?

2. Who killed him and what were their reasons?[/b]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Naosuke's killers were a group of 18 samurai (nominally ronin), seventeen of which were from Mito han and one of which was from Satsuma. The survivors presented the requisite self-serving proclamation of righteousness (signed by everyone except Satsuma-san) to Shogunate officials after they surrendered themselves to the bakufu. In essence, the document claimed that Ii had proven himself to be an enemy of the nation by usurping the Shogun's power, interfering in Imperial succession, and had unjustly punished good men during the Ansei purges. They concluded that they had taken it upon themselves to kill Ii, but that they bore no ill will towards the Shogunate and hoped that now the business of ousting the foreigners from Japan could commence. How much of this was Nariaki's doing is something that will never be known-all of the Mito men had resigned from the clan shortly before the attack so as not to bring official punishment upon Nariaki. It does seem to have been the high point (so to speak) of Mito involvement in the Bakumatsu.

(most of the following is paraphrased from 'Agitated Japan', which had a pretty good account of the raid)

The actual raid was carried out on the 3rd day of the 3rd month in 1860 (March 25). The assassins knew which gate Ii would be using (Sakuradamon-cool pic, OB!) and about what time he would be by-and also were crafty enough to pick a day where it was snowing. This meant Ii's guards would have on cumbersome straw raincoats and also had their swords covered (in the ensuing fight, many of the Ii guards had to defend themselves with the swords still in the scabbards). Most of the assassins spread out to either side and concealed themselves, while a few of them approached Ii's palanquin as it entered the gate. They made a show of picking a fight with the Ii guards by trying to grab a spear, and when the procession stopped and the Ii samurai went to confront the troublemakers, the other assassins emerged and made quick work of them. In the ensuing fight, the unprepared Ii samurai incurred considerable casualties (eventually coming to 8 killed and 15 wounded), and Naosuke never even was able to leave his palanquin. The killers stabbed through the sides, drug out his dead body, and the Satsuma man collected his head. He ran off with it, and with him went the best hope the bakufu had for preserving the Shogunate. The killers lost (from the account, it's not completely clear) about 8 men as a result of battle (one of whom killed himself at Tatsunokuchi-the man from Satsuma, who had been badly wounded). Of the survivors, 4 surrendered to Wakizaka and 4 to Hosokawa. The other two fled to Kyoto. The 8 who surrendered were eventually put to death by the Shogunate.

The shame of it all was that Ii had had plenty of advance warning from his friends of assassination attempts, but refused to alter his routines or supplement the ranks of his bodyguards. Presumably, he saw changing his habits as being an admission of fear. Another point brought up is that Ii's procession would have its numbers specifically spelled out by bakufu law, but he was the Tairo-he could have had himself exempted with ease. Reading the account, I found it hard to believe that the retainers accompanying his palanquin were not in a better state of battle-readiness, given the rumors of an attempt on his life.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Better late then never I suppose. Just to add, here is another view of the assassination.

From p.333, Japan (David Murray)
Quote:

By his enemies he was called the "swaggering prime minister (bakko genro)". Numerous other persons who
had busied themselves with interfering with his
schemes and in promoting opposition in Kyoto, he
also imprisoned. Suddenly on the 23d of March, 1860,
Ii Kamonno-kami was assassinated as he was being
carried in his norimono from his yashiki outside the
Sakurada gate to the palace of the shogun.

The assassins were eighteen ronins of the province
of Mito, who wished to avenge the imprisonment of
their prince. They carried the head of the murdered
regent to the Mito castle, and after exhibiting it to
the gloating eyes of the prince, exposed it upon a
pike at the principal gate.

For more on this, see The Life of Ii Naosuke, by Shimada Saburo, Tokyo, 1888;


P. 16, Constitutional Development of Japan
Quote:

this able prime minister fell on March 23, 1860, by the sword of Mito ronins, who alleged, as the pretext of their crime, that " li Kamon No Kami had
insulted the imperial decree and, careless of the misery of the people, but making foreign intercourse his chief aim, had opened ports." " The position of the government upon the death of the regent was that of helpless inactivity. The sudden removal of the foremost man of the empire was as the removal of the fly-wheel from a piece of complicated machinery. The whole empire stood aghast, expecting and fearing some great political convulsion."2
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That was a very good answer, Tatsunoshi. And Dash, thanks for the additional insight from those other two books.

I’d like to wind down this excellent discussion by asking both the active participants of this study group as well as the SA Citadel’s general population the following:


1. Has this thread helped to change your perception of Ii Naosuke? If so, why?
2. As a result of this study group, do you now have a better understanding of the byzantine politics of the Bakumatsu and the philosophies of the various factions?
3. Has this thread made you interested in learning more about the Bakumatsu? If so, please feel free to PM me about ideas you have for additional study groups.



Lastly, I’m actually planning on attending an exhibition of Ii Naosuke on Monday, August 11. If I learn anything new, I’ll post about it here!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:

1. Has this thread helped to change your perception of Ii Naosuke? If so, why?
2. As a result of this study group, do you now have a better understanding of the byzantine politics of the Bakumatsu and the philosophies of the various factions?
3. Has this thread made you interested in learning more about the Bakumatsu?


1) Yes-it showed that there was much more to the man than the stereotype that is normally given of him. He was much more educated and refined than I had previously thought, and certainly not the evil black hearted ogre he's usually presented as in most popular accounts.

2) Again, yes-particularly of the role Mito played in the early going.

3) I'm always interested in learning more about any period of Japanese history! But yeah, the more you learn about this era, the more you want to know...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
1. Has this thread helped to change your perception of Ii Naosuke? If so, why?

2. As a result of this study group, do you now have a better understanding of the byzantine politics of the Bakumatsu and the philosophies of the various factions?

3. Has this thread made you interested in learning more about the Bakumatsu? If so, please feel free to PM me about ideas you have for additional study groups.


My answers are as follows.

1.) I don't know if it changed my perception of Naosuke but it did quite a bit to solidify my perception of Ii Naosuke. I think this thread brought out the more human side of the man, which up until now was lacking in my understanding of him. Often times, iconic historical figures seem almost like paintings: Two dimensional. This did a lot for me to break out of that thought with regards to this mans life. There were several items that I had not known previously and a couple things that were clarified. And it feels good to learn no matter at what age.

2.) To be honest, I adore chatting about Bakumatsu politics and philosophies. Naya will certainly thank all of you because this discussion has given me an outlet to discuss and has given Naya a couple weeks break of me hounding her to talk on the subject.

3.) I certainly enjoyed this discussion. While there are several members here who are encyclopedic in their knowledge, I hope its influenced others perhaps just starting out or exploring the subject to take further interest in the subject matter and the time period.

Well done to you as well, Obenjo, for leading and facilitating this discussion.

bow


Last edited by Dash101 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey guys,

I lurked this thread mainly because I had nothing to add to previous posts. My knowledge about the Bakamatsu period is not very extensive. Now I know the areas in which I should brush up on my research.

I just wanted to say thanks to all the posters on this thread, you have certainly sparked a greater interest in me for this period.

You rule
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, OB for another great discussion group. I think everyone appreciates the effort you put into research and making the questions interesting, keeping us all on track and so on. I know it's very time-consuming. You rule (it's hard enough finding time to research and write a few answers)

It's good to be forced to organize your ideas and put them into words. I find it both challenging and helpful. Thanks to everyone who participated. I found a lot of new ideas to think about, and it did expand my understanding of good ole Ii.

It would be great to have another in-depth bakumatsu discussion - but in a while Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree. It was lots of fun, even when I couldn't contribute much. I'd love to see more of these, and not just on the Bakumatsu. I do think that we probably need a break for a while.

My view of Ii Naosuke didn't necessarily change as it expanded. I'd previously had a pretty one-dimensional view of the man based on limited reading. I think that this discussion did a good job at adding depth not just to him but to the Bakumatsu in general.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for all the positive feedback. Very Happy Yes, this study group was great and thank you to all for making it so much fun and interesting! As I've now led two Bakumatsu study groups (the Shimazu boys and this one) plus one on the Sengoku period group (Nobunaga) this year, I'm going to be taking a break from leading anything new for a while. But for my next study group, I'll probably be leading an expedition back into the Sengoku period. So start repairing your armor and sharpening your katana and yari.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue some studies on the diplomatic history of the Bakumatsu and am actually leaving in less then two hours for Hikone castle and its new Ii Nasuke exhibit, I'll then be on a week-long vacation in the Kansai area. I was going to bring my PC with to do some posting while on my trip, but my backpack is already quite full and getting heavy. The last thing I need is to get a heat stroke lugging it around with me, so you'll have to wait a while before I can post any Ii Naosuke goodies.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
In the meantime, I'm going to continue some studies on the diplomatic history of the Bakumatsu and am actually leaving in less then two hours for Hikone castle and its new Ii Nasuke exhibit, I'll then be on a week-long vacation in the Kansai area.


Yeah, yeah, rub it in! Rolling eyes

Seriously, have fun and bring back lots of cool goodies!

-Josh
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here are some photos I took while in Hikone that help show Ii Naosuke's cultural and artistic sides.

Enjoy!


This is the tea ceremony room within the Ii Daimyo's residence.


A tea bowl made by Ii Naosuke


A vessel used for boiling water for tea ceremonies attributed to Naosuke


A flower vase made from a gourd made by Naosuke


Naosuke messing around with different inkan designs


A waka poem written by Naosuke. I need to find a translation of this, and I can't read his writing! Mad


A letter by Naosuke. Nice penmanship. Too bad I can't make heads or tails of it! Razz
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Dash101
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow! Great images!!!!! You've inspired me to take the trek someday. Very Happy
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Tatsunoshi
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I take it this is a permanent exhibit at Hikone-jo (as opposed to being part of the seasonal Ii Naosuke exhibit they're running now)?
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tatsunoshi wrote:
I take it this is a permanent exhibit at Hikone-jo (as opposed to being part of the seasonal Ii Naosuke exhibit they're running now)?
Yes, these pics are from the permanent exhibition. There wasn't anything in the special exhibit about Ii Naosuke and the opening of Japan that inspired me to take any photos (which are allowed in the museum as long as you don't use a flash). The special exhibition is running throughout the year and they are shuffling things every couple of months. Perhaps I just hit it at a low point. but who knows?!

And Dash-- you should get over to Hikone. The museum is a nice, but the castle! It's all about the castle! (Whoa! I sound like Kramer from Seinfeld! Laughing). It's a rare original-not a rebuilt modern concrete and steel thing with an elevator running through it. Hikone-jo is quite beautiful and has a fun little castle town to go walking around in as long as it isn't too hot! Laughing
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Dash101
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Agreed, I would love to get to Hikone. Thus far our planned excursion for year end is either going to Hokkaido (Sapporo) or going to Hikone, or Nikko. Flip of a coin yet undecided. I'll be heading to Shikoku myself but the family and I are going to do a get away trip... Like I said still undecided.

From Kyoto, do you take the JR Keihan line to arrive?
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Obenjo Kusanosuke
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dash101 wrote:
Agreed, I would love to get to Hikone. Thus far our planned excursion for year end is either going to Hokkaido (Sapporo) or going to Hikone, or Nikko. Flip of a coin yet undecided. I'll be heading to Shikoku myself but the family and I are going to do a get away trip... Like I said still undecided.

From Kyoto, do you take the JR Keihan line to arrive?


Dash,

Hikone is about a 50-55 minute ride on JR from Kyoto Station—that is if you take a normal train. You could take a kodama or hikari shinkansen from either Kyoto or Nagoya to Maebara and transfer there to the regular JR line. Hikone is only one stop over and the castle is about a 10-15 minute walk from the station.

A shinkansen ticket is more expensive, but it isn’t too bad if you are going from Nagoya or Kyoto as it is in close proximity to those places and if you want to get there in a hurry.
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