Register :: Log in :: Profile   


Wooden Armor?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:40 am    Post subject: Wooden Armor? Reply with quote
In Conlan's newest book, he states several times that most pre-15th/16th century armour was made up of lacquered wooden plates laced together (with some suits using leather plates). This changed to metal plates with some using leather around the time of the sengoku. While I haven't read much on armor, what I have read says that armor was almost exclusively made of leather or metal plates. Thoughts?

Conlan also has an interesting section on later examples of lacquered 'paper' armor.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sound totally new to me too... I doubt it

Omishima Jinja has many armor made of leather and
metal dating far before the Sengoku.
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Guys, There would have been various combinations of metal sane and wooden sane depending on how light as opposed to how protective an armour was desired. Areas like the sode, kusazuri and susoita would be effective against arrows being only wood. Those prints we see of arrows stuck in these places indicates wooden sane, don't you think? Arrows wouldn't stick so easily to iron sane. Also, if dismounted the sode would be less of a hindrance if light. I have not seen a lacquered paper armour, but, not impossible. I remember an advert years ago showing a tank being supported by a corrugated cardboard bridge, paper really. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've never seen wood used for sane and would love a source on that info. For weight/cost purposes, you do see them using leather instead of metal in the Heian period (this seems to be the transition from the all-metal armors of the ritsuryo armies to the leather armors of the eastern horsemen).

I *have* seen wooden armor. It is usually described as some kind of peasant armor, though that seems to be the hoplogical equivalent of 'ritual piece'. It is unclear whether the pieces I've seen (sorry, don't have them sourced right now) were actually peasant armors or for some kind of training. Either way, they seem to be rare and isolated pieces rather than evidence of any larger trend.

-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
We know early on there was wooden armour and some bamboo. We know iron and leather that were lacquered was used. I haven't dismantled armour to see if all of it was this, I'm curious now. Tony Bryant may have some info on this. I hope he sees this thread. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
How early are we talking about, and who is 'we'? I've yet to see solid evidence for wooden armor being used on the battlefield, except in individual circumstances, during the historical period. I'd love to find out otherwise.

I have seen one example of wooden or bamboo armor. As mentioned, it was attributed to peasants (I think 'noumin' was the word used, indicating farmers, but I don't have access to the source at the moment). It looked like the attribution was an assumption of the scholars, but it looked like it could easily have been some kind of practice armor, or something similar, just as easily.

-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


DAMMIT!!!! Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tony, this mean Conlan slipped on a banana with his
statement ?
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was a similar themed thread refering to bamboo armour of the Ainu. It was never proven or disproven for that matter. Referencing '"They Came to Japan", pg. 290, Jeromino de Angelis'

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1020

I had heard that metal armour was not made by Ainu, but, traded for or battlefield acquisitions.

John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Ainu long remained in what was essentially a neolithic (or low, early-iron) state of technology. Furthermore, the Tlinget and people of Athabaskan descent in the Americas did use wooden armor.

Still, this is a far cry from claiming that wooden or bamboo armor was in common use in Japan, since Hokkaido wasn't considered a part of Japan, proper, until late in the Edo period.


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok. let assuming they were able to curve the bamboo
plates (doesn't sound to me that hard..).
What puzzles me is how they tied together the various
plates of bamboo. If you drill too many holes
you'll prepare an highway for a breackage.
Even a few holes should IMHO weaken the wood enough
to be not reliable. The fibers of bamboo would split
following a line linking the several holes made.
And you need quiet a few to be drilled in order to
put together an armor.

Does my words make any sense ? Confused
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I do not know if this ever happened, but, if I was to use bamboo I wold not drill it at all. I would tie it together with cord woven over the bamboo sane. Of course all moot. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
evalerio
Karou
Karou
Veteran Member



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 952
Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Book on Takeda. Scroll down for photo of what appears to be ashigaru wooden armour:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Takeda-Samurai-Japanese-Sword-Helmet-Armor-Book_W0QQitemZ300274717693QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Nonfiction_Book?hash=item300274717693&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

The wooden armour in the photo appears to be the one repeatedly illustrated in color plates/black and white illustrations of Takeda ashigaru that appear in Terje Solum's 'Saga of the Samurai' series.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, how far did this go up the ranks. Poor ashigaru specimen, but' better quality as class increased? I bought the book in any case. Thanks. Looks good. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tsubame1
Hida no Kami
Hida no Kami
Veteran Member



Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 1370
Location: Magenta, Northern Italy

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
John, the one posted by Emmanuel looks tied as you
suggested, not pierced and "sewed" as the regular
ones. But doesn't look like something able to protect
from anything else then blunt or slow lateral
cuts.
Anything pointed with some kinetik energy would
likely pass thru the scales if not strong enough to
pierce them.

I'm *extremely* interested anyway so please post
anythying you find out in the book.
I've now spent almost 1000,00 U$ on books about
Warabite-to and early swords so really can't
spend other money for armor... Crying or Very sad

Emmanuel, any other rabbit on the same matter from
you magical hat ?
_________________
.
Carlo

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I recognize the book (you can get it at Takeda Jinja in Kofu-shi), and I'm pretty sure we're talking the same piece. I don't take it as anything but a lone sample, as without more like it I don't see any other evidence that it was in widespread use.

For those who have problems, here's a link to the image:

http://www.gria.com/images/swordtakedat.jpg

If I can get a copy when I'm back in DC I can look it up.


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While working on the interview with Dr. Conlan, I asked him about this point and this is what he had to say:

"Thank you for the comment about the armor plates ('sane'). Yes my statement is misleading and should be revised.
Sane, or kozane (the small plates) were made from hardened leather, metal, wood and paper (washi). Leather is most common for the older suits.


The main point that I wanted to make regarding the "sane" is that they were lacquered and relatively light. I thought it would be easier to explain lacquer to a general audience by describing the sane as being made of wood (as is generally the case with lacquer). Metal sane were rarer in the oldest suits of armor (those located at Oyamazumi shrine) and used mostly to reinforce the torso region region. (I wanted to contrast with later suits, which were in fact mostly made of metal). I see, however, that my explanation only sows confusion. In the interest of accuracy, I should revise this passage, and state that sane were mostly constructed from hardened leather."

By the way, the finished interview with Thomas Conlan will be up Friday on the SA's Shogun-ki blog (and also the Kamakura/Sengoku forum).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JLBadgley
Tsushima no Kami
Tsushima no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei



Joined: 09 Apr 2007
Posts: 1617
Location: Washington, DC, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I am really impressed with his responsiveness. This is the second time he has offered a revision. (I could argue that the 'oldest' suits were metal... but that won't get us anywhere because I understand he's pretty much talking about suits from the late Heian and later, and would confuse most of his audience, probably.)


-Josh
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
AJBryant
Shikken
Shikken
Veteran Member



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1782

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I still want to see one of those armours (other than the odd random "no-min" body defense) that has WOODEN or BAMBOO sane or lames.

Really.

Now.
_________________
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have been to Oyamazumi a couple of times and although there is very old armour there, I couldn't tell you what the materials were within it. I did get some catalogs that show some armour fragments, but, seem metal and leather sane. I post the pics. Maybe you can see something else. John








_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tatsunoshi
Miko no Kami
Miko no Kami
Forum Kanrei
Forum Kanrei
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4923
Location: 京都日本 Cincinnati, OH

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
AJBryant wrote:
I still want to see one of those armours (other than the odd random "no-min" body defense) that has WOODEN or BAMBOO sane or lames.

Really.

Now.


Conlan's got a photo in his book that shows a suit presented by Yoshinobu (I think-don't have the book with me) to Queen Victoria that gives all the essentials on it (typical Edo period O-yori repro), and states the plating is made of wood. Now, whether this is just carried over from the text or something stated in the museum description/an examination he did, I don't know. I'm thinking the former.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shin no sen
Izumi no Kami
Izumi no Kami
Veteran Member
Multi-Year Benefactor
Multi-Year Benefactor



Joined: 25 Nov 2006
Posts: 1056

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Further to this thread. I have a copy of this book now and have the translation of the description below it.

"Bamboo suit of armour. For peasant footsoldier. Sengoku Jidai.

Originally owned by an old family household in Makioka Town. Bamboo armour uses a high quality hard bamboo Sane to protect the body instead of flat metal plates or Neri-kawa. With original Yoroi-bitsu."

It may have been more common than previously suspected for the part time ashigaru, at least, in this han. John
_________________
知恵は時間及びエネルギーである
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bluelake
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 21
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cotton body armor (綿甲) was used by Korean soldiers right up to the end of the 19th century. In February, Korean TV did a special on it. A few weeks prior, I was interviewed by them for the show (I think my segment ended up being about 45 seconds long...). In any case, you might find the page on it interesting:

http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/myeongap.jpg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tornadoes28
Oki no Kami
Oki no Kami
Veteran Member
2009 Benefactor
2009 Benefactor



Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 1420
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
bluelake wrote:
Cotton body armor (綿甲) was used by Korean soldiers right up to the end of the 19th century. In February, Korean TV did a special on it. A few weeks prior, I was interviewed by them for the show (I think my segment ended up being about 45 seconds long...). In any case, you might find the page on it interesting:

http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/myeongap.jpg


I'm fairly knowledgeable about American history but surprisingly I am not familiar with this 1871 incident between the United States and Korea. I'll have to read your site to learn about this event.
_________________
http://twitter.com/28loki

Google+
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
bluelake
Peasant
Peasant
Veteran Member



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 21
Location: South Korea

PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
bluelake wrote:
Cotton body armor (綿甲) was used by Korean soldiers right up to the end of the 19th century. In February, Korean TV did a special on it. A few weeks prior, I was interviewed by them for the show (I think my segment ended up being about 45 seconds long...). In any case, you might find the page on it interesting:

http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/myeongap.jpg


I'm fairly knowledgeable about American history but surprisingly I am not familiar with this 1871 incident between the United States and Korea. I'll have to read your site to learn about this event.



Yeah, it was a relatively unknown conflict, but is very fascinating to study. It was a real wake-up call to Korea regarding its military preparedness (matchlock vs. rolling block carbines; bronze breechloaders vs. Dahlgren cannon, etc.), but still little was done about it following, as evidenced by Japan's 1875 military action (which did open up Korea's doors).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Samurai Archives Citadel Forum Index // Arms and Armor All times are GMT - 10 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Help the Samurai Archives




alexisRed v1.2 // Theme Created By: Andrew Charron // Samuraized By: Aaron Rister

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group