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Western armor worn by Ieyasu at Sekigahara
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Max Chouinard
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa58wnWVmrk&feature=related

I assume its this? I long for a Korean movie in which Japanese are portrayed as something else than cheesy villains Rolling Eyes .
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I get a kick out of the samurai commander there wearing Yamamoto Kansuke's armour. Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thread is open again. I moved (NOT DELETED) some potential trouble causing posts and debate off the visible forum.

This thread has gotten way off topic. How did we get from Ieyasu's armor at Sekigahara to silly and utterly stupid video clips of inaccurate movies about Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea?

Please get back on topic or start a new thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BTW-- the pic of the armor that Tornadoes posted is not the armor that Ieyasu wore at Sekigahara. At Sekigahara, his helmet was like a monk's hat and adorned with golden oak leaves. I'll try to get around to posting a picture of that armor at some point later.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
BTW-- the pic of the armor that Tornadoes posted is not the armor that Ieyasu wore at Sekigahara. At Sekigahara, his helmet was like a monk's hat and adorned with golden oak leaves. I'll try to get around to posting a picture of that armor at some point later.


That is interesting. The pic I posted is from the Nikko Tourist Association website and states the armor is located at the "Treasure House of Toshogu Shrine." I wonder where they got that armor from.

http://www.nikko-jp.org/english/toshogu/houbutsukan.html
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've seen depictions of Ieyasu in both armors at Sekigahara-the one Obenjo spoke of and then the nanban one. The golden oak leaves does seem to be the preferred choice.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's the one I generally prefer, as well. Can't really say why off the top of my head, though.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
That is interesting. The pic I posted is from the Nikko Tourist Association website and states the armor is located at the "Treasure House of Toshogu Shrine." I wonder where they got that armor from.
http://www.nikko-jp.org/english/toshogu/houbutsukan.html

I saw the western-style armor at the shrine treasure house long ago, and remember that the sign said it was worn at Sekigahara.

Edit: I looked in the DaiTokugawa Ten catalogue (a great work), and it is there. According to the description, the box it comes in states that it was worn at Sekigahara, and a document in the Kunôzan Toshogu (where Ieyasu was first buried) also states that Ieyasu took a "Hatomune Nanban Gusoku" with him to Sekigahara, and it is now in Nikko. It would seems most likely that it was dedicated to either the Nikko or the Kunozan Toshogu by Iemitsu or Hidetada.
The catalogue has 4 Nanban Dô Gusoku listed as belonging to Ieyasu.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
More interesting information. Thank you Bethetsu.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes I remember Nobunaga was fascinated with all things Western, and sitting there in his castle at Azuchi, would have wanted keeled armour that could deflect musket balls.

I have a pair of sleeves which belonged to the second Lord Hachisuka of Tokushima. He was given Awaji Island by Tokugawa Ieyasu for his services at the siege of Osaka Castle. They have ruffs at the end, and Christian cross designs hidden inside.

One of my helmets is a 'Toppai' or 'Donguri' kabuto, which is actually a Western conquistador-style helmet made not long after Sekigahara. When I wear it for re-enactments, the Japanese love it, even today!
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you Piers ?
Oishi is your nickname here ?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
BTW-- the pic of the armor that Tornadoes posted is not the armor that Ieyasu wore at Sekigahara. At Sekigahara, his helmet was like a monk's hat and adorned with golden oak leaves. I'll try to get around to posting a picture of that armor at some point later.


Obenjo, can you please follow-up with why you feel that the armor I posted was not worn by Ieyasu at Sekigahara. Since the museum states it was and Bethetsu also states that it is reported to have been worn at Sekigahara. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tsubame1 wrote:
Are you Piers ?
Oishi is your nickname here ?


Tsubame1 - Carlo! Very good to see you here! Cool
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I see you've been a member for awhile. Didn't know it was you. John
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shin no sen wrote:
I see you've been a member for awhile. Didn't know it was you. John


John from Canada? Didn't know it was you, either! Never posted here much, but my computer remembered my password for me, so my posts should soon hit the 10 mark! Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, small world Piers. Very Happy John
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hehehe, your re-enacting addiction unveiled your
concealed identity.

Glad to have you here Piers. Tony is the person you
need to talk to when questions about armor arises.

And you're a great source for Teppo.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Obenjo Kusanosuke wrote:
BTW-- the pic of the armor that Tornadoes posted is not the armor that Ieyasu wore at Sekigahara. At Sekigahara, his helmet was like a monk's hat and adorned with golden oak leaves. I'll try to get around to posting a picture of that armor at some point later.


There is a replica of Ieyasu's armor at Hamamatsu Castle that is reportedly one he wore at the Battle of Sekigahara.

http://www.hamamatsu-navi.jp/shiro/guide/index.html

It is different than the western style armor that is displayed at the museum in Nikko which also states it was armor worn by Ieyasu at Sekigahara. Is it possible that Ieyasu had more than one set of armor with him at Sekigahara and this is the reason for the multiple claims?

Is it possible that a powerful daimyo of Ieyasu's level would have more than one set of armor and that they would bring more than one set with them on a campaign?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I too would like to know about the basis for the claims that various armor was worn by Ieyasu at Sekigahara.

The Tochigi Toshogu armor has a plausible claim: the shogun would have wanted to dedicate extremely important armor at the creation of a shrine to the "divine ancestor" 神祖. Though since one record says just that Ieyasu "took" it to Sekigahara (see my post above), it is possible the armor he actually wore was not available and the Toshogu armor was only one of the ones he took, as Tornadoes suggested.

But what makes the claim for the Hamamatsu armor, or any others, plausible? Also, are there any contemporary descriptions of the armor he was wearing?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Bethetsu wrote:
But what makes the claim for the Hamamatsu armor, or any others, plausible? Also, are there any contemporary descriptions of the armor he was wearing?


Also remember that "contemporary" is relative; a painting made just after the battle still might not actually be the armor worn--instead, it might the be the wearer's "iconic" armor that they are known for, especially if the artist doesn't have any other information.

-Josh
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Me bad. Really bad actually. I found the answer some time ago, but for whatever reason, never posted it. I probably got too busy with work-related stuff and pushed this back on my mental "to-do" list and well... Anyway, it has been fun watching this thread mushroom over the past few days. There has been some interesting posts. Now that I am done travelling for business and done with 12 to 14 hour work days for the year, there is no excuse for me not posting the definitive answer.

To get to the bottom of this mystery, I went straight to the Tokugawa themselves. Very Happy It pays to be connected. It really does. Okay, so maybe I'm not on personal terms with ranking members of the Tokugawa family, but I am on personal terms with the Dai Tokugawa Ten (大徳川展)catalog book from the absolutely amazing exhibition at the Tokyo National Museum from 2007, which was sponsored and organized by the Tokugawa Foundation which is headed by the Tokugawa family. The below armor, which is labeled as exhibition No. 1, is clearly defined in the catalog as the armor that Ieyasu wore at Sekigahara. Period! Gold oak leaves were attached to the kabuto. Perhaps Ieyasu brought the other set of armor with him, as it wouldn't be uncommon for someone of Ieyasu's stature to bring a couple of sets on a campaign, but again, at Sekigahara, he didn't wear the set of armor displayed at Nikkō. The armor that Ieyasu actually wore at Sekigahara was so revered, that it was displayed every New Year at Edo Castle from the time of Iemitsu until the end of the Bakumatsu period. Ieyasu also brought this *real* Sekigahara armor with him on one or both of the Osaka campaigns, but did not wear it--it was for display only in his honjin.

I don't know about you guys, but I'll take the word of the Tokugawa family and the Tokyo National Museum over what Nikkō Tōshogū says.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is very interesting, thank you Obenjo. I too probably would take the word of the family and the National museum over the Toshogu museum. I suppose it is possible the other western armor was at Sekigahara but not worn by Ieyasu.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
That is very interesting, thank you Obenjo. I too probably would take the word of the family and the National museum over the Toshogu museum. I suppose it is possible the other western armor was at Sekigahara but not worn by Ieyasu.


Unlike the rank and file, Ieyasu was probably in a position to have several suits with him so that he didn't have to wear the same sweaty armour day after day (and it was raining like crazy that week, too). He probably *did* have both with him, and the confusion arises over no one really caring to note authoritatively which one he was actually wearing on That Day.

That said, I still think he was probably wearing the Japanese armour rather than the nanban one. It seems to have the more reliable support.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you Tony. Did you come across much info on his armor during your research for Sekigahara?

Jon
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tornadoes28 wrote:
Thank you Tony. Did you come across much info on his armor during your research for Sekigahara?

Jon


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