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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:57 am    Post subject: About Gumdo, Kumdo propaganda Reply with quote
I found some forum members are infected by the propaganda. Sad
Gumdo never existed in Korean history until Japanese brought to train Korean police men in early 20th century.
That's why Gumdo players are wearing Kendo uniform.
But most of foreigners can't find out difference between Chinese and Japanese and Korean cultures so they think nothing wrong with the Korean Gumdo players wearing Japanese armors and folk clothes.

Korea - The Black Ships of Kendo
-The Internationalisation of Kendo and the Olympic Problem-

http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php
Quote:
As colonies of Japan, the Taiwanese and Korean populace were also ‘encouraged’ to participate in these activities.(3) Koreans took to budo with unexpected enthusiasm, and even when the war ended and the Republic of Korea was established, they maintained a commitment to kendo that persists to this day, evident in the comparatively high level and large population of enthusiasts. (4) However, in many ways the old wounds of the occupation have still not healed, and in a nationwide revisionist stance, Koreans for the most part refuse to entertain the notion that the sport's origins lie in Japan, and instead call it "kumdo", insisting that it originated in Korea.(5)

For example, to demonstrate this revisionist mentality, I have quoted the historical information placed on the official homepage of the Korea Kumdo Association.(6)

“Our nation boasts a long history and tradition of swordsmanship. In the Koguryo dynasty (?-688) mountain ascetics perfected their technique in sword and other weapons. Similarly, the Paekche kingdom held specialist departments for the manufacture of swords, and there are records suggesting that sword masters were sent to Japan to teach swordsmanship. However, kenjutsu developed greatly during the Silla dynasty (668–935). Where a military academy was established in the capital city of Kyongju and was open to young men of aristocratic birth. Upon completion of their training, these young men were given the title hwarang, meaning Flower Knight. This period was indeed the time when the military arts flourished. One of the most significant contributions to future swordsmen to come form this period was the book Bon Gook Gum Bup (『本国剣法』). This treatise forms the basis for two-handed sword techniques and modern kumdo...The Koryo dynasty (935-1392 AD) inherited the Silla kenjutsu legacy and continued to develop it further. However, during the Chosun dynasty (1392-1910), military arts became disfavoured compared with civil arts, and fell into disarray. On the other hand, during this period, the recipients of our culture in Japan continued to develop the culture of the sword and it began to flourish over there.”

The official explanation continues to inform readers that in the middle of the Chosun dynasty, the importance of the military arts was once more recognised through the experience of a number of wars and rebellions. During the Chungjo era (1776-1800) the text Sok Pyungjang Tosul (『武芸図譜通志』) (Revised Illustrated manual of Military training and Tactics) included sword techniques among the twenty-four martial arts recorded, and was adopted in the instruction of military training.

From there, the official history proceeds to explain how kenjutsu (gekiken撃剣) was taught at the Korean police academies from 1896, and then from 1904 in the military academies. Also, there is mention of a tournament held between the Korean police and their Japanese counterparts in 1908. In September of the same year, gekiken was also included in the first official national physical education program for the general public. According to the text, the term gekiken was changed to kumdo in 1910, although Japanese records state this as happening in Japan on August 1st 1919. Nevertheless, it is stated that this change in nomenclature helped promote kumdo as a sport with a popular civil following. Similar to trends in Japan, kumdo was also introduced into schools from 1906 (although Japan was in 1911), and was recognised as an official curricular subject in junior high schools in 1927 (again, Japan was 1931.)(Cool I have placed the rest of the information found on the official KKA website in a table for easy reference. It is interesting to note that for the most part, development of kumdo in Korea was fairly much in parallel with Japan, although in some cases Korea’s advancements seem to predate Japan.(7)
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why do Koreans try this ridiculous propaganda?
Because they succeeded to propagate Tae Kwon do.

Problems in the identity and Philosophy of Taegwondo and Their Historical Causes
http://www.bstkd.com/CAPENER.1.HTM
Quote:
The main cause of these problems is found in the history of t’aegwondo’s origins. The fact that t’aegwondo was first brought into Korea from Japan in the form of Japanese karate around the time of the liberation of Korea from Japanese colonial rule, and the way this fact has been dealt with in Korea has left many serious inconsistencies [81] in the way t’aegwondo has been developed within Korea and propagated abroad.

This process of development can be broadly outlined as follows: Japanese karate called kongsudo or tangsudo was introduced to Korea just after liberation from Japan by Koreans who had learned karate in Japan. Upon returning, these Koreans opened karate gymnasiums promoting what they were teaching as karate, much like the process followed by the early Judo instructors. Well after these schools became established, the need to “Koreanize” was felt. The process of Koreanization consisted of three main aspects. The first was the selection of a new, non-Japanese name. The second was the creation of a system of techniques and training which was distinctly different from that of karate, and the third was the attempt to establish t’aegwondo’s existence and development within tile historical flow of Korean civilization.


When Koreans talk about Koguryo or Shila or Pekche, the ANCIENT Korean kingdoms, most stories were created recently.
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is their haidon gumdo story.
Quote:
Haidong Gumdo is the martial art of the ancient Goguryo Kingdom (AD 331). Master Sul Bong established a dojang by Sam Ji Lake in the Baekdoo Mountains and taught his apostles a martial art based on the ideas of patriotism, filial piety, respecting the elderly and executing righteousness. Among them, the outstanding ones were called Samurang and they were always at the front line of the battle against in justice.


This story do not have any historical back ups and there is a smell of nationalism.
"Samurang" is a new word that they created because of popularity of Japanese "Samurai".
We can find plenty of photos of Samurai in 19th century but never be able to find Samurang photos.

Why Budo wasn't widely practiced in Korea was
1.Korea was Yangbang society. (Japan was Samurai society)
2.Korea had a big protector, the master country China.
3.Confucianism
4.Korean soldiers prefered to use bows.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku wrote:

Because they succeeded to propagate [i]Tae Kwon do


Ah yes the ancient art of Taekwondo, founded in 1955.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san wrote:

Ah yes the ancient art of Taekwondo, founded in 1955.


Maybe they are using "ancient" with the coloqial connotation "something before I was born" (benefit of the doubt and all that.

Laughing
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ltdomer98
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'll refrain from comment, because I think everyone knows how I feel about this topic.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san,

Much like the "ancient art of Aikidou." More like the illegitimate grandchild of jujutsu.


kitsuno,

Right on! Smile


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Algren-san,

Much like the "ancient art of Aikidou." More like the illegitimate grandchild of jujutsu.




I am a near zealous practicioner of aikido and will be beginning Taekwondo soon (because their is nothing else in my area) however I realize that both arts are a product of the 20th century. Its just a shame so many others who practice these arts do not and for some reason feel they must rewrite history to suit their needs.Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san,

Very true. I am surprised that there are no other schools around where you are.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Algren-san,

Very true. I am surprised that there are no other schools around where you are.


Peace,

Matt


Well I don't really live close enough to any major cities. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are the closest and they're still too far to drive two to three times a week for classes. Luckily my Aikido Sensei is very good (he was recently promoted to Shihan) and his son has cross trained in Judo, Kendo, and has done some iaido in the past. So at least I have a basic understanding of alot of the more modern Japanese martial arts.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san,

Try doing a Google search for martial arts in your city. It should bring up a map with everything nearby. If you do not mind a 20 mile drive for a good doujou then you could probably find something.
Otherwise, best of luck to you. I know what it is like to be in a place with a severe lack of facilities.


Peace,

Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
Algren-san,

Try doing a Google search for martial arts in your city. It should bring up a map with everything nearby. If you do not mind a 20 mile drive for a good doujou then you could probably find something.
Otherwise, best of luck to you. I know what it is like to be in a place with a severe lack of facilities.


Peace,

Matt


Already tried that I have to drive nearly twenty miles to go to aikido. Well anyway I am happy with that for now so I am not complaining...too much.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Algren-san,

Good deal. As long as you are getting everything you want out of your training then you are set.


Peace,

Matt
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shikisoku
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:

Very true. I am surprised that there are no other schools around where you are.


Even I live in west Tokyo, it's hard to find Kenjutsu dojo near by.
Kendo dojo are everywhere but they rarely take adult beginers.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
shikisoku,

I have heard similar stories about getting into the martial arts "late" in life in Japan. That is a shame since you are in the heart of the homeland. You should not be able to go ten yards without tripping over a halfway decent school. I am sure they are even more stringent against letting in gaijin.


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Matt
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
msr.iaidoka wrote:
I am sure they are even more stringent against letting in gaijin.


I don't know, when I was living in Japan I had no problem getting into a karate dojo. At the time I was more motivated nad interesting in learning Japanese and meeting people, so I didn't stay with it too long, but it was definately interesting and high quality.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I found something quite interesting. Please, take a look at http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/koreanswordcutting.htm

When you will stop laughing (I know, it might take a while- at least in did my case) can you possibly explain how is it possible to cut traditional targets 5 or 6 times in row and still have them not fall down ? First think I thought about was different blade geometry... any ideas ? My experiences with gumdo are rather limited.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
_RK_ wrote:
I found something quite interesting. Please, take a look at http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/koreanswordcutting.htm

When you will stop laughing (I know, it might take a while- at least in did my case) can you possibly explain how is it possible to cut traditional targets 5 or 6 times in row and still have them not fall down ? First think I thought about was different blade geometry... any ideas ? My experiences with gumdo are rather limited.


Wow, that video was truly horrible. Bad kamae, hilarious movements that came out of a kung-fu flick...
I was expecting that one of them would slip and fall.

As for the targets, are you referring to the main part? If so, there's obviously a weight at the base (that's why it's not falling over).
If that's not what you mean, then I don't understand your question.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No, I think I saw them cutting straw mats somewhere and what surprised me was not a technique ( I am kendo practitioner and my observations were similar to yours) but fact that straw mat target kept shape after 4-5 cuts- normally 3 cuts with traditional katana are something quite hard to achieve so my guess was: either targets or swords are different then nichonto.

Ok- it's here, bottom of the page- straw cutting. Your guess ?

http://www.haidong-gumdo.ie/
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baian wrote:
_RK_ wrote:
I found something quite interesting. Please, take a look at http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/koreanswordcutting.htm

When you will stop laughing (I know, it might take a while- at least in did my case) can you possibly explain how is it possible to cut traditional targets 5 or 6 times in row and still have them not fall down ? First think I thought about was different blade geometry... any ideas ? My experiences with gumdo are rather limited.


Wow, that video was truly horrible. Bad kamae, hilarious movements that came out of a kung-fu flick...
I was expecting that one of them would slip and fall.

As for the targets, are you referring to the main part? If so, there's obviously a weight at the base (that's why it's not falling over).
If that's not what you mean, then I don't understand your question.


Haha really, they cut those bamboo poles like a bunch of people having fun trying to do their best samurai impression in front of a crowd would do. Which is exactly what this was.

About the staw cutting: Your guess is as good as mine. The targets are probably made to cut that way.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually my favorite was one that started with jumping up at front of bamboo pole.

With straw- I must admit it made me curious about targets. Considering fact that guy was capable to cut four of them starting in bad position and with sword held in one hand he has either really razor- sharp and rather thin blade or very "soft" targets (most probably both).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
_RK_

"Click here to view superb video."

Singularly
Unique
Presentation of
Excruciatingly
Retarded
Bladework


平和,

マット
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ROTFL I am sorry but english is not my first nor even second language so I might be somehow slow to pick up subtle shades of irony- are you by any chance taking me for a Gumdo fan ?

Still- laughable as it is- it makes me wonder what kind of cutting targets are this. If they are holding shape so well and are so easy to cut I'd love to make some home videos showing even more "exotic" techniques and make guys from dojo hearts drop a beat or two when watching my marvelous (truth be said I should call them "superb" following your explanation of meaning of this word) skills
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
_RK_ wrote:
I found something quite interesting. Please, take a look at http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/koreanswordcutting.htm

When you will stop laughing (I know, it might take a while- at least in did my case) can you possibly explain how is it possible to cut traditional targets 5 or 6 times in row and still have them not fall down ? First think I thought about was different blade geometry... any ideas ? My experiences with gumdo are rather limited.


The tape was rather poor.Gumdo has no blade reishiki or any type of reisha at all.It is rather crude. I have seen there kata a number of times. I have also done ippon kumitachi with some Gumdo black belts. Straight Japanese.However....they did beat the Japanese in Kendo at the World Championships recently
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, I know (it's hard NOT to know about it as there is quite a stir in entire kendo world). My sensei- who's rather traditional- describing entire event to us (Poland fought Korea with quite good results) was very much against approach he described as turning kendo into yet another sport with money flowing in and lot of dorky "sportsman" types hovering around. I am too much of beginner to be able to judge it, really but it feels a bit that way.
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